THE ORVILLE - S1, E5: "PRIA"

[UssGlenn]

It would have much more interesting to have episodes where their blatant Western colonialism had disasterous results BECAUSE of the contamination. It should be things like "The Omega Glory" and "Piece of the Action" that caused the Prime Directive - show me a disaster caused by interference, not a bunch or moral babbling about what ifs.

Yes, Ive been saying this for years. To fix "Dear Doctor" they should have provided the Valakians the means to create the cure. Phlox should not have the cure ready, it needs to be something that would take months to prepare, but Phlox can give them the instructions they need before the Enterprise leaves. Then in the middle of the next season the Enterprise finds out that the Valakians completely screwed it up, or worse tried to weaponize it, and both species on the planet were wiped out to extinction. If that's not a reason to create the Prime Directive nothing is.

 

[Anders]

The fact that we are still discussing the episode like this years later must mean something. Not every decision by a Star Trek crew has to be perfect, but if it is something we can discuss, and even have different opinions on, that's great.

I like the episode not specifically because of the ending, but because of everything leading up to it. It's about how the episode is built up, and the way the characters interact.

They did have a difficult decision, as helping the Valakians, would clearly disadvantage, and perhaps destroy the Menk, that were basically slaves at that point. Their research also showed that the Menk were on their way to achieving evolutionary growth. They did make that very point. If someone came by and helped the Neanderthals from extinction in our past, and perhaps to domination of our world, we may never have reached the stars, or heard Mozart, or read Shakespeare. If you have a peaceful and positive force like the federation, they should not change the natural evolution of other worlds, especially those in ongoing change, that are currently less advanced.

 

[Phoenix219]

Yes, Ive been saying this for years. To fix "Dear Doctor" they should have provided the Valakians the means to create the cure. Phlox should not have the cure ready, it needs to be something that would take months to prepare, but Phlox can give them the instructions they need before the Enterprise leaves. Then in the middle of the next season the Enterprise finds out that the Valakians completely screwed it up, or worse tried to weaponize it, and both species on the planet were wiped out to extinction. If that's not a reason to create the Prime Directive nothing is.

The first season TNG episode "Too short a season" was supposedly imagined as a plot device for Shatner to be rejuvenated and go handle the disaster that resulted from his actions during "A Private Little War." Things like that should be the cause of the extreme TNG interpretation of the PD. In a real life, practical situation, the Kirk approach might be beneficial - hindsight is always 20/20. Interference CAN go wrong, but doesn't neccesarily HAVE to. There are more interesting debates to be have, then what the show has gone for.

 

[BillJ]

They did make that very point. If someone came by and helped the Neanderthals from extinction in our past, and perhaps to domination of our world, we may never have reached the stars, or heard Mozart, or read Shakespeare.

Or they may have made it to the stars sooner. They may have created their own wonders. They may have avoided some of the mistakes we made.

You can't base decisions on what may happen tens-of-thousands of years down the road. Because no one knows how things will play out. If you have the opportunity to save people in the here-and-now, you save them.

 

[unigolyn]

Even worse was that the original ending did NOT have this issue, and would have ended with the Enterprise saving the day.... but they felt it would be too easy and common of an ending, and went for the shock value just for the sake of shock value. It would have much more interesting to have episodes where their blatant Western colonialism had disasterous results BECAUSE of the contamination. It should be things like "The Omega Glory" and "Piece of the Action" that caused the Prime Directive - show me a disaster caused by interference, not a bunch or moral babbling about what ifs.

Regardless, the Prime Directive should totally have an exception for extinction-level events. Yes, cultural contamination is a potentially disastrous thing, but does it follow that we should thereby let entire civilizations perish to natural disasters? Would you argue in favor of letting a pre-contact tribe on Earth die from preventable natural disasters? This may well become an issue as there are known uncontacted tribes on islands in the Indian Ocean, and rising sea levels may end up sinking their homes.

The especially tricky thing is that some of them like the Sentinelese are extremely warlike and respond to all attempts at contact with lethal levels of violence. Do we let them die? Do we take them with overwhelming but non-lethal force and save them despite themselves?

Personally, I abhor the very idea of avoiding contact out of some sort of preservationist motivation - other humans and sapient beings in general are not zoo exhibits. They deserve to be a part of humanity's common achievements as much as everyone else.

I also don't automatically accept the idea that cultural contamination must always result in tragedy. There might be ways to do it better than what we've discovered so far. We went straight from millennia of right of conquest to "who are we to condemn cannibalism?".

 

[Brennyren]

Or they may have made it to the stars sooner. They may have created their own wonders. They may have avoided some of the mistakes we made.

You can't base decisions on what may happen tens-of-thousands of years down the road. Because no one knows how things will play out. If you have the opportunity to save people in the here-and-now, you save them.

Exactly so. And the odd thing is, we'd have no trouble knowing what to do in a comparable situation in real life. Take, for example, the recent hurricanes. We don't debate whether the people in the affected area were "meant" to die (imagine the reaction if we did!); we take what action we can to save them.

To bring this back around to The Orville: one of the things I really liked -- and noticed immediately -- about "If the Stars Should Appear..." was that the Orville's people wasted no time debating the morality of saving the inhabitants of the artificial planet; they just went about doing it.

 

[Anders]

And this kind of debate is part of why it is such a great episode. How boring would it be if every decision they made was flawless and not worth debating?

The Orville episode was nothing alike it though. It would be if the people they were planning to save, were also enslaving and destroying another alien species, that were close to or at the same level as them in evolution. They were also crashing into a star, not the same thing at all.

 

[BillJ]

And this kind of debate is part of why it is such a great episode. How boring would it be if every decision they made was flawless and not worth debating?

"Dear, Doctor" doesn't give us anything to debate. How can you speak for nature's plan when you have no idea what it is, especially as a scientist?

If you go by "nature's plan", then you have to submit to the idea that the Valakians finding the NX-01 while looking for someone to help is also part of that plan. That is why "nature's plan" is complete, and utter non-sense.

What happens to the Menk, when everything the Valakians built begins to crumble? What happens when they no longer have access to the medical treatment that the Valakians provide, and the food they grow? It would be like taking a domesticated animal and dropping it in the middle of the desert. Death of the Valakians, could very well mean death for the entirety of the Menk as well.

 

[Mr Awe]

Late to the party but gave this a 4/5. Great episode. It's really interesting that the crew of the Orville know that they should've been destroyed. Wonder if that'll have lasting impacts? I think the show has really found its tone--it's blend of humor and SF adventure. I look forward to this series every week.

 

[Mr Awe]

I hadn't considered that Theron's character was lying about how The Orville was destroyed in her past and what would happen to them in the future, ergo her disappearance means the ship was never redirected to save her and was never caught in the storm in the first place, but usually you're TOLD that kind of information instead of having to come up with it to explain story inconsistencies.

I took her at her word for this. I think it was information we're supposed to accept to understand the story. But, who knows. It does add an interesting moral ambiguity to her actions. She comes back and truly saves people, but is getting rich and forces them to live in the future.

 

[Anders]

"Dear, Doctor" doesn't give us anything to debate. How can you speak for nature's plan when you have no idea what it is, especially as a scientist?

If you go by "nature's plan", then you have to submit to the idea that the Valakians finding the NX-01 while looking for someone to help is also part of that plan. That is why "nature's plan" is complete, and utter non-sense.

What happens to the Menk, when everything the Valakians built begins to crumble? What happens when they no longer have access to the medical treatment that the Valakians provide, and the food they grow? It would be like taking a domesticated animal and dropping it in the middle of the desert. Death of the Valakians, could very well mean death for the entirety of the Menk as well.

Thought it was interesting that the Menk were both mentioned in the Kelvin timeline in the movies, and in Star Trek Star Charts: "By 2236, the Menk had become dominant, with their population reaching millions while the Valakians had only a few hundred thousand people. They had discovered warp technology in 2236 and were admitted to the United Federation of Planetsshortly thereafter." http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Menk

 

[Phoenix219]

There is no *way* that they would have learned, advanced or evolved that quickly.

ZERO.

 

[Ovation]

There is no *way* that they would have learned, advanced or evolved that quickly.

ZERO.

Why? Evolution doesn't have a built-in "speed limiter" AND it's a fictional alien species--who is to say how quickly evolution can or cannot operate?

 

[Phoenix219]

Disagree with just about every bit of assumption in this post - but no point in arguing about it.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Thought it was interesting that the Menk were both mentioned in the Kelvin timeline in the movies, and in Star Trek Star Charts: "By 2236, the Menk had become dominant, with their population reaching millions while the Valakians had only a few hundred thousand people. They had discovered warp technology in 2236 and were admitted to the United Federation of Planetsshortly thereafter." http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Menk

There is no *way* that they would have learned, advanced or evolved that quickly.

ZERO.

Does it outrage you then that the TNG novel The Captain's Blood depicts Magna Roma (from the TOS episode "Bread and Circuses") as a Federation member in the 24th century?

 

[BillJ]

Does it outrage you then that the TNG novel The Captain's Blood depicts Magna Roma (from the TOS episode "Bread and Circuses") as a Federation member in the 24th century?

Outrage? No. Is it dumb? Yes.

 

[UssGlenn]

If Magna Roma advanced at the same pace as Earth they would have warp drive by the 2360s. They also have a one world government already in their 20th Century. So assuming they successfully get rid of slavery in the next few decades, I can see 24th Century Federation membership as not outlandish.

 

[B.J.]

While I'm also quickly growing weary of the "jar of pickles" line, I hope they're going somewhere with that, setting up something for a future episode.

Agreed, but only because it's a mouthful to say every time. I'm hoping Mercer comes up with a shorthand for it, something like:
*points at door* "Pickles?"

 

[Mudd]

To bring this back around to The Orville: one of the things I really liked -- and noticed immediately -- about "If the Stars Should Appear..." was that the Orville's people wasted no time debating the morality of saving the inhabitants of the artificial planet; they just went about doing it.

Yep. Love that!

 

[tharpdevenport]

If Ed pulls that friggin' teleporting device out of his drawer and uses it in a future episode when it should have vanished with Pria, somebody will then be required to slap him upside the head and say, "No! Bad writer!"