Spoilers THE ORVILLE S1, E12: "MAD IDOLATRY" - SEASON FINALE

[Mr Awe]

Since the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven scientifically (yet), it comes down to a matter of faith on either side of the same coin on what one believes to be true. Hence, religion, in the strictest sense of the term.

Getting all technical here, religion is a belief in a higher being. Therefore, atheism can't be a religion because it does not involve a higher being. However, atheism can be a belief system. Because you can't prove that there is no god, anyone who states that god does not exist is doing so without evidence--it's a belief.

There is a difference between a religious belief and a more general belief. Atheism can be a belief, it can be dogmatic, but it can't be a religious belief.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Getting all technical here, religion is a belief in a higher being. Therefore, atheism can't be a religion because it does not involve a higher being. However, atheism can be a belief system. Because you can't prove that there is no god, anyone who states that god does not exist is doing so without evidence--it's a belief.

Many Zen Buddhists, Jewish Humanists, and (historically) people of the Cult of Reason who reject supernatural gods, but still practiced religions.

Indeed, what I practice, Reconstructionist Judaism, is often criticized for being non-theism in sheep's clothing.

 

[Mr Awe]

Many Zen Buddhists, Jewish Humanists, and (historically) people of the Cult of Reason who reject supernatural gods, but still practiced religions.

Indeed, what I practice, Reconstructionist Judaism, is often criticized for being non-theism in sheep's clothing.

I know almost nothing about those belief systems, but if what you say is true, they don't qualify as religions according to the strict dictionary definition:

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

Not that I have any issue with how they refer to themselves.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I know almost nothing about those belief systems, but if what you say is true, they don't qualify as religions according to the strict dictionary definition:

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

Not that I have any issue with how they refer to themselves.

There are other definitions, but I would point out that the definition you chose does not relate specifically to deities, and "superhuman controlling power" allows for many non-theistic possibilities.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Getting all technical here, religion is a belief in a higher being. Therefore, atheism can't be a religion because it does not involve a higher being. However, atheism can be a belief system. Because you can't prove that there is no god, anyone who states that god does not exist is doing so without evidence--it's a belief.

There is a difference between a religious belief and a more general belief. Atheism can be a belief, it can be dogmatic, but it can't be a religious belief.

Fair enough - good point.

 

[Mr Awe]

There are other definitions, but I would point out that the definition you chose does not relate specifically to deities, and "superhuman controlling power" allows for many non-theistic possibilities.

True. But, are there religions that use that definition. A religion based on superhuman power that isn't a deity?

I don't really care much about the specifics of the definition other than it makes no sense to say that atheism is a religion!

 

[137th Gebirg]

Here are the Merriam-Webster definitions of religion:
1 a : the state of a religious - a nun in her 20th year of religion
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

I think I was looking primarily at definition #4 which most closely resembles my original point, and maybe pieces of #2 and #3, whereas others seem to be gravitating more closely to most commonly-accepted definition #1(b), understandably so. No worries - 'sall good.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I don't really care much about the specifics of the definition other than it makes no sense to say that atheism is a religion!

And I haven't.

 

[ChasFink]

Atheism is a religion in the same sense that not smoking is an addiction.

And some non-smokers, like some atheists, can be annoyingly dogmatic and seek to impose their view on everyone.

As a quasi-agnostic myself, I have nothing against atheism. I do, however, get mighty grumpy with atheists who insist that belief in a deity, or in other "spiritual" things, is stupid or wrong. I don't think any episode of The Orville has done this.

 

[T'Bonz]

I don't think any episode of The Orville has done this.

My take-away (as a religious person) from the episode was that "religion is a stage through which a society passes (and then discards) en route to becoming an advanced society." So it was a bit of a slap.

As for atheists, there are two kinds. The ones I was used to most - they just didn't believe in God but didn't give a shit if anyone else did and didn't try to stop their holidays, expressions of faith, whatever. The other kind is a religious atheist - the kind that really dislikes religion and would eradicate it if they could. They're more anti-Christian than atheist in my book.

 

[Mudd]

However, atheism can be a belief system. Because you can't prove that there is no god, anyone who states that god does not exist is doing so without evidence--it's a belief.

Arrant nonsense. People get this wrong all the time.

If I state that there is no Bleem, is this a "belief?"

 

[Romulan_spy]

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
   synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
   • a particular system of faith and worship.
     plural noun: religions
     "the world's great religions"
   • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
     "consumerism is the new religion

----
I would say that militant atheism could be considered a religion based on the last definition: "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." And an atheist who is a militant environmentalist or a militant humanist could be considered religious in those areas. The environmentalism or the humanism would be the religion, not the atheism. Generally speaking, atheism itself is not a religion because it is not a belief in a superhuman power and does not involve any system of faith or worship.

 

[Mr Awe]

And I haven't.

Right, but it wasn't directed at you!

 

[Mr Awe]

Arrant nonsense. People get this wrong all the time.

If I state that there is no Bleem, is this a "belief?"

You bet. You're implicitly stating that you believe there is no Bleem?! Yeah, belief is right there in the statement! Thanks for proving my point!

If you have factual evidence that Bleem doesn't exist, I'd grant you that it's a statement of fact. But, without that, it's merely a belief. Right now, there is no proof that god doesn't exist. It's hard to prove a negative anyway. Therefore, stating that god doesn't exist is a belief rather than a statement of fact. Logic.

I consider myself to be agnostic. I think it is unlikely that god exists, but I don't know for a fact that s/he doesn't exist.

 

[Photoman15]

Is this thread (or all Orville threads) going to be arguing about Religion until the 2nd season premiere?

 

[Mr Awe]

Is this thread (or all Orville threads) going to be arguing about Religion until the 2nd season premiere?

Grab some popcorn!

 

[137th Gebirg]

Is this thread (or all Orville threads) going to be arguing about Religion until the 2nd season premiere?

Honestly, compared to other Trek-based threads that discussed religion in the past, this one really is quite civil.

Grab some popcorn!

 

[Mudd]

Sure, why not?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

"I want popcorn now"

 

[ChasFink]

My take-away (as a religious person) from the episode was that "religion is a stage through which a society passes (and then discards) en route to becoming an advanced society." So it was a bit of a slap.

I can see how you can take it that way, but I prefer a more subtle reading: "blind devotion to religious beliefs that can lead to harm is a stage through which a society passes (and then discards) en route to becoming an advanced society." To me, the advancement is when we stop believing in things because our religion tells us "this is so" despite evidence (or reasoned ethics) to the contrary.