Exactly so.
Spoilers THE ORVILLE S1, E12: "MAD IDOLATRY" - SEASON FINALE
- Thread starter Mudd
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Exactly so.
I dunno - I've known countless people in my life (many here on this board) who believe SO strongly that God does not exist, they're equal on the militant zealotry meter with the most devout megachurch Christians. Sounds like they didn't get the "how to be a proper atheist" memo, then.
To say that atheism and belief are mutually exclusive is as much a mistake as saying that atheism is another type of religion. Yes, there are people who actively form opinions base upon what religion, faith, belief and spirituality, yet still call themselves atheists. I think the simplest case to think of is the atheist who celebrates Christmas: s/he is engaging with religious rituals and practices, yet asserting an interpretation of them in order to remove the supernatural (or at least make it less important). That person is clearly asserting a type of belief.
But then there are people who just don't believe in gods, and may never think about it unless another person questions them about their atheism/
Fair enough - my earlier point is that I think it's a mistake to paint the concept of atheism with such a broad brush, though, when you said "Atheism is an ABSENCE of belief. It is NOT a belief in and of itself". As you say in your most recent post, there are different flavors of atheism that actually do possess a belief system to varying degrees. It is not a monolithic one-definition-fits-all POV, but just as varied and diverse as any series of religious denominations. One can easily get further down into the weeds when looking at the more granular agnostic theist and agnostic atheist sub-categories. Generalization on any level, for any reason, never seems to render a 100% accurate assessment.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your belief, man.
I see what you did there. 
If you're defining atheism as "I don't know whether there is a god," I'd accept that as a lack of belief. Typically, I've heard atheism defined as "there is no god," which is a belief. And, that an agnostic does not know whether there is a god. People may well define atheism differently.
Exactly so.
You're funny. Stating that god does not exist *is* an affirmative statement about the condition of the universe.
However, if you're defining atheism as, "I don't know if god exists," I'd agree with you. Maybe it's a case of using different definitions?
That was another poster.
The debates over the meaning of atheism and religion tend to get hijacked by those who speak loudest, and I don't think I am alone to be frustrated to be caught between those who decry "the War on Christmas" and those who complain about "the Godbotherers." We in the middle deserve not to be shunted into one category or another because the extremes tend to equivocate and dichotomize.
To get back to the episode (as well as the 4th), Orville is really being humanist in its approach. Religion is an artifact of oppression, not its cause. We've also seen an episode in which criticize belief that is entirely formed within the public sphere. There is more subtlety than would appear at first blush in the show.
I always consider myself as an agnostic because *I don't know.* I suspect that there isn't a god but, hey, I can't know that for sure. The universe is one weird ass place!
I've always taken atheism to mean that a person actively believes that there is no god. As you say, it's often a very strong belief! Maybe it's a fuzzy term that people use differently.
Regardless of whether they call it atheism or whatever, when someone says there is no god, it's a belief because it is a statement about the condition of the universe.
Ah, my mistake. Apologies - there's a lot of traffic to keep up with on this subject.
I used to consider myself an agnostic theist when I was younger. Things I've seen in my life in this weird-ass universe (ain't THAT the truth!) made me more of a believer later on, but not zealously so. As a libertarian, I recognize folks of all faiths (or lack thereof) and try not to pass judgment. I'm certainly not an advocate of institutional religion - the church, like modern government, is a construct of humanity to institutionalize control and dogmatic obedience over other humans and has nothing to do with a Supreme Being. What does God need with a 10%-of-income per annum tithe? The relationship between a person and his/her deity is strictly personal and should never be quantified by bricks and mortar on the Material Plane or dictated to or judged by someone who allegedly "knows better". I'm an adult and I can make my own decisions on such things. I do consider myself of Christian upbringing but I am NOT born again - I got it right the first time, thanks.
In the end, none of us really know for sure, and won't until we shed the mortal coil. I guess I'm kind of a wait-and-see individual.
Agreed. I particularly like how they recognize that, while horribly flawed for obvious reasons, they admitted that their faith, however misguided, was an essential part of their culture's evolution into greatness. That it should be not forgotten, but embraced and studied in a historical context for what it was, even though they are no longer in need of it as a species. IMO, it was handled SO much better than anything TNG ever produced.
I know I risk taking this thread even further afield than it is already, but this old philosopher has to pipe in.
There is a distinct difference between "I don't believe in God" and "I believe there is no God". While the former can include "I don't believe in God because I do believe in Occam's razor and God does not add anything to my understanding of the universe", the latter cannot. The former, while coming close to agnosticism, still amounts to atheism by my standards. The latter is the not-believing-is-a-belief state of mind that makes Atheism a proselytizing religion for many of its adherents.
Edit: I mean many adherents to "I believe there is no God", not many adherents to atheism.
There is a distinct difference between "I don't believe in God" and "I believe there is no God". While the former can include "I don't believe in God because I do believe in Occam's razor and God does not add anything to my understanding of the universe", the latter cannot. The former, while coming close to agnosticism, still amounts to atheism by my standards. The latter is the not-believing-is-a-belief state of mind that makes Atheism a proselytizing religion for many of its adherents.
Edit: I mean many adherents to "I believe there is no God", not many adherents to atheism.
Exactly so.
This. Atheism is just not believing in anything and not caring. The "I don't know" thing is called agnosticism. Like myself - I'm not confident enough to make a real decision on the matter, but I don't wanna declare as atheist, just in case I'm wrong!
I would add that the first declaration, "I don't believe in God", does not necessarily forbid the existence of God. In other words, God might exist but the person chooses not to believe in Him. It is statement about what the person chooses to do, independent of whether there is a God or not. The second declaration, "I believe there is no God" is a categorical statement that the person thinks that God does not exist.
I regard myself as an agnostic and have never met any of the "devout atheist" types referred to earlier. I am reminded of the old line about atheism being a religion like bald is a hair color. And the one about the atheist who wouldn't marry the agnostic because they couldn't agree which religion not to bring the kids up in. (Irreligous differences, I guess.)
^^ I like the bald one. I'll have to add that to my non-smoker one, just to mix things up. 
Or is just participating in somebody else's holiday to be a good sport (and to get presents).