Spoilers The Orville: New Horizons Season 3 Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by tomalak301, Jun 2, 2022.

  1. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in it's final stage
    Just saw this episode, thought it was really good. Topa's gonna have a target on her back, and is gonna be hounded by Moclan extremists for the rest of her life, though.

    It was nice to have some of the old humour back at the start of this episode, too.
     
  2. 1987SpaceGuy

    1987SpaceGuy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2019
    loved this episode. one of my all time Orville favorites.
    Liked how many (Ed, Kelly, Brotus, Claire, Isaac and others) pitched in with a part to listen/help/find a solution and support Topa.
    Glad Klyden seems to be gone.
     
  3. Ghel

    Ghel Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    This was a favorite episode of this season thus far. However, it was not without its flaws:

    It was a bit (very) contrived that EVERYONE on the ship would take time off to see Bortus sing, leaving the entire ship abandoned without even a skeleton crew watching key systems apparently. (Remember, nobody including the Captain could "know" about the procedure, so this had to be a legitimate invitation which also somehow gave all people on active duty the night off to see some random officer sing?!?) The irony is that while they took great pains to show the ship essentially abandoned, they really wouldn't need to do this. Aside from the command crew, there wouldn't be a reason for the ship to be completely stripped of people. I can't imagine random ensign #3 who just happens to walk by knowing about or caring about a random medical procedure taking place in the medical bay.

    Plus, the medical procedure still uses the ship's medical facilities, which still pins liability squarely on the Union. When they were discussing this, I honestly expected Issac to take the child down to the planet to complete the procedure (perhaps using portable medical equipment.) Otherwise, the admiral is right, allowing the procedure on the ship only makes the captain look insubordinate AND stupid.

    That said, I did like the overall message and dilemma of the story. It also reinforces the unintended message of asking for forgiveness rather than permission. :) All I could think of is Kirk, (paraphrasing) "The word is no. I am therefore doing it any way!"
     
  4. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Good, there's some people in the audience that need that.
     
  5. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Location:
    United States
    The beauty of it is that Ed has no problem looking insubordinate and stupid as long as Topa was given the treatment she so desperately needed and deserved. She had rights, and Ed, Kelly, Claire, and goddess help him Isaac, were going to see it through come hell or high water. A dressing down by an admiral hamstrung by politics is worth the price, IMO.

    Also, it's been a running joke, a small one, that Bortus sings, but no one has ever heard him sing despite him having a reputation for a great singing voice. The first time it was done, he was cut short right as he was about to sing, and the crew missed it. So this time, we actually get to hear him, so of course people are going to be curious and see it. Plus, time off from work? Yes, please.

    All of that aside, Peter Macon's got some pipes. I love his voice, and I love the support he has for his daughter. That makes him an incredibly sexy man, which is not related to your point, but I stand by it. Klyden's a fool.
     
  6. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    It’s a weird message since it’s a reverse transgender situation. Someone who was born female sees themselves as female.
    It was a okay episode but I wish there was more going on. Especially for a 75 minute episode.
     
    Charles Phipps likes this.
  7. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    So did Mercer's daughter. I'd think there was a big time skip but the doctor's kids seem to be aging normally, so it must be an alien thing.
     
    FreezeC77 likes this.
  8. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Jessie Gender points out it still works for intersex issues.
     
  9. Skipper

    Skipper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2016
    Just wanted to add that for a moment Isaac was very, very frighting in the sickbay scene...
     
  10. Vince A

    Vince A Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2022
    That scene was really well shot and directed. The low angles on Isaac made him imposing af.
     
  11. Kelso

    Kelso Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    Location:
    On the destruct button until the last minute!
    Jessie's review, and her commentary on Twitter, are well worth anyone's time.



    I enjoyed this episode a lot. Although, it's frustrating that the show insists on maintaining a 1990's style policy of using on awkward alien metaphors in place of real representation in many cases. It muddies the message.

    As much nostalgia as I have for 90's sci-fi, I'm glad Star Trek is becoming more progressive than that.

    I like allegorical sci-fi stories a lot, but not at the expense of actual representation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  12. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    There's some interesting stories that, sadly, we may not be past the usefulness of those. Apparently, a lot of people have been reporting that their relatives who aren't fond of trans issues or are outright prejudiced were on Toppa's side when they watched this and the metaphor really did allow it to hit much harder.

    Sadly, I've also seen some people furious over it who don't have progressive views on trans issues.
     
  13. Cap.T

    Cap.T Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    I did not enjoy the first four episodes of the new season at all. The episodes were to meh and definitely too long for my taste. I was glad that the infantile humor was largely absend but that was about the only thing that worked for me.

    This latest episode though... Absolutely beautiful. Great performances especially. For me the best episode of the show by far.
     
    Borg Queen and Charles Phipps like this.
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    A thought occurs to me. Since Topa still continues to answer to that name even after coming out as a female, does that mean that will remain her name, making the Topa name gender neutral or should we expect her to choose a new name at some future point?
    It's happened on Star Trek before. Usually for funerals. Everyone accepts this as a by-product of how advanced Starfleet computers are, and that the ship is located somewhere where there is no danger of imminent threat. Are you saying Star Trek can do this but Orville can't?
    Hardly "some random officer." Bortus is third in command of the entire ship, he'd be a well recognized figure among the crew. And as mentioned already, his singing ability has been a running joke on the show since the first season, so yeah, if it were known that Bortus was going to put on a performance singing, I can easily see the entire crew taking interest in the matter.
    The point is they wanted to prevent Random Ensign #3 from walking into sickbay and seeing something thus putting them in the situation where if asked about it later they'd have to either be a snitch or lie about it. This was done very much to protect the crew from consequences as it was allowing the matter to be done uninterrupted.
    But since it's Isaac doing the matter on his own, it can be written off as unauthorized use of Union Medical facilities. At worst, Ed, Kelly and Claire can be reprimanded for not securing medical facilities properly thereby preventing someone from entering and conducting unauthorized surgery. And even then, their defense can be that as a Kaylon, Isaac could easily override whatever security precautions they put in place.
    Again, I'll echo the above that the point was that Ed was willing to take the blow to his reputation in order to allow the right thing be done for Topa.
     
  15. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    I don't think that they would have feminine forms of names, given the rarity of females. Perhaps the original name should have been "Topo" (as in Topo Gigio).
     
  16. FreezeC77

    FreezeC77 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Given that 2 of the episodes this year have already dealt with suicide/self-harm and this episode brought back the gender modification (and now gender identity of a grown-up Topa)... Makes me wonder if Seth has personal experience in his life with someone (or multiple) people who went through these issues in the past few years since he wrote both of these episodes.

    The Seth McFarlane who wrote the premiere with the suicide and the reactions and anger show, plus this episode... It really doesn't seem like the same guy who wrote some of the stuff in past works. I'm thinking of some lines in Ted 2 that aren't really "gender identity sensitive"
     
    Commander Troi and Borg Queen like this.
  17. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Location:
    Far North Chicago Suburbs
    A beautifully done episode. I do miss the silliness, but they're still writing great stories.

    The longer run times are definitely not feeling stretched out or padded. They've been just right all season.

    Admiral Steamroller really went to town on Ed and Kelly.
     
    Commander Troi and Borg Queen like this.
  18. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    It's certainly possible, but could just be that one was a comedy and the other more of a drama.
     
  19. Ghel

    Ghel Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    When has this ever happened in Star Trek?!? I have seen a number of funerals in Trek, but the only time we've seen everyone in one location was for a *mandatory* briefing in Star Trek TMP. Even then, it isn't established that there wasn't still a skeleton crew manning critical systems.

    Let me rephrase. At your job, if your boss sent out an email stating he decided to put on a free "concert" after work within a day or two of the email, would you attend? Do you think *everyone* at your workplace would choose to listen to your boss sing in their free time? What about people not in your department or on a different shift? I am sorry, but if they had even put one or two people in the hallways, I'd believe it, but barren hallways and research labs?!? That was a bit silly.

    The problem still exists from a liability and image perspective. Isaac may not represent the Union, but he is still on board the vessel with permission from the Union. He then uses a Union Facility to perform surgery which the Maklan's and Union Central expressly denied. This would be like you buying a cruise ticket. One night the entire cruise ship staff goes to the aft to watch a movie. With nobody around, you meander into the bridge and decide to pilot it around, when shockingly, you crash into the dock, injuring a bunch of people. The Captain and the cruise line are both going to be legally liable for allowing you to pilot, even if you didn't have express permission to do so. Isaac is far more than a passenger. It would be VERY hard to tell the Maklans that a person who is authorized in all areas of the ship including the bridge didn't represent the Union when he used the Union Sickbay to perform a procedure expressly forbidden by the Maklans.

    This is why, while it is a brave (and dare I say, even the right choice) to allow the procedure to occur, it would have made far more sense for Isaac to take Topa to a neutral site (like the planet below) and do the procedure off-ship. It would be *much* harder to prove that the Union had any knowledge of the procedure, it would be *much* harder to prove that Isaac used Union equipment if he used portable gear, and nobody would stumble into Isaac. I honestly thought this was going to be the original plan when they were talking on the planet about how the procedure couldn't have any connection to the Union.
     
  20. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    The episode The Red Angel from Disco's second season. The episode starts off with the crew attending Ariam's funeral, and there is a montage showing several areas of the ship completely devoid of people, including the bridge (where the monitors are even flashing "Automated Mode" on them) before finally showing the shuttlebay where everyone is in attendance.
    *Sigh* It was a joke. You know what those are right? I mean, I know this season has more of a serious slant to it, and this episode in particular dealt with some pretty serious subject matter, but that doesn't mean they're not allowed to have a joke in it. You say it's silly, it's supposed to be silly.

    Regardless, I work for a retail company, and there have been incidents where entire store staffs have taken a shift or even a whole day off to attend various events. Indeed, twice I got called into to different stores all because the entire staff were unavailable. One time I got called into cover an overnight shift at one store because their entire overnight staff (about a dozen people) were attending a Christmas party. The only other one working that night with me was from another store, and though we both had prior overnight experience, neither of us were currently overnight employees at our respective stores. On another occasion, I was called into another store because their entire staff (around 200 employees) had the day off to attend a baseball game that several in the store were participating in. And on that occasion, everyone working in that store on that particular day (including the shift duty managers) were all called in from other stores.

    So, yes, I know from experience that this sort of thing does happen.
    Regardless, Isaac is still a Kaylon and it's well known that if he set his mind to something, there's very little the crew could do to stop him. Klyden even tries to do so in this episode, and Isaac easily overpowers him. Which is why he's the perfect person to carry out the procedure, everyone cam shrug it off as "typical Kaylon treachery" and Isaac's importance to the war effort even provides a ready excuse for why he's still allowed in the ship. Formal reprimands can be issued to him, Ed, Kelly and Claire as a means of saying "the forms have been obeyed" and everyone can move on.
    How so? Even portable equipment is still Union equipment, it doesn't stop being Union just because it isn't bolted down.

    Besides, in no way is performing surgery outdoors or inside a thousands of years old crypt considered healthy.