The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!

[Xavier_Storma]

I'm sure they'll still use the same Klingon ships, but they'll just be CG recreations instead of the previous movie footage.

Hope not. The TOS-R versions looked like shit.

True, but from the extreme distance they are shown from it might not look too bad. I'd still prefer the original shots, but they must do what they must.

They are going to be in a lot of trouble if they don't have the rights to that movie footage anymore. There's so many episodes - 110011010101, Matter of Perspective, Tin Man - that need the movie footage. There's no way they could replace those shots without a lot of work.

Well actually it is not that hard to recreate shots in CG. I am doing it all the time for my own project, and sometimes the shots look much better than the original ones. Adding a little detail here and there helps to make them more authentic:

Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZstJ1oxNZQ

Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYp1hKxWLs

You see it is actually an opportunity.

 

[BillJ]

Hope not. The TOS-R versions looked like shit.

True, but from the extreme distance they are shown from it might not look too bad. I'd still prefer the original shots, but they must do what they must.

They are going to be in a lot of trouble if they don't have the rights to that movie footage anymore. There's so many episodes - 110011010101, Matter of Perspective, Tin Man - that need the movie footage. There's no way they could replace those shots without a lot of work.

Well actually it is not that hard to recreate shots in CG. I am doing it all the time for my own project, and sometimes the shots look much better than the original ones. Adding a little detail here and there helps to make them more authentic:

Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZstJ1oxNZQ

Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYp1hKxWLs

You see it is actually an opportunity.

Now look at the D-7's in TOS-R and tell me if you want the model work replaced with them?

 

[Trekker4747]

I suspect there won't be much problem in using the movie stuff for the BDs, I mean the film is already part of the episodes and if there is a problem I suspect things will be worked out. Were there to be a problem we certainly would have heard something by now considering they're probably done with the first season considering it comes out this Summer/Fall.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

CGI for original run

Hey I just came across this regarding TNG's VFX from season 4 on:

I worked at a Post Production facility during the editing of ST-TNG and met the owner of Digital Magic, the company who took over the effects work after ILM's initial first few seasons. He told me with all the pieces in place during production there was an average of 1 million dollars a week just for the digital special effects. Most all of them created digitally at standard definition and delivered on Digibeta tape.

-January 18, 2010
By
M. Loflin

 

[Tosk]

Uh, ILM never worked on TNG except for the pilot, so...

 

[RAMA]

True, but from the extreme distance they are shown from it might not look too bad. I'd still prefer the original shots, but they must do what they must.

They are going to be in a lot of trouble if they don't have the rights to that movie footage anymore. There's so many episodes - 110011010101, Matter of Perspective, Tin Man - that need the movie footage. There's no way they could replace those shots without a lot of work.

Well actually it is not that hard to recreate shots in CG. I am doing it all the time for my own project, and sometimes the shots look much better than the original ones. Adding a little detail here and there helps to make them more authentic:

Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZstJ1oxNZQ

Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYp1hKxWLs

You see it is actually an opportunity.

Now look at the D-7's in TOS-R and tell me if you want the model work replaced with them?

They look way better than the original FX. They werent designed to be "modern" FX.

 

[GalaxyX]

Oh c'mon, always with the negative slants. Lucas may have "unlimited funds", but he's also got a reputation as an effective business man (that tends to be how you get to "unlimited funds" in the first place), and generally doesn't spend more money than he needs to. Plus the Star Wars films he remastered have a tiny short runtime compared to TNG.

I only complain because TOS-R got the treatment I wanted. I was hoping the same for TNG-R, that's all.

The fact that you're thinking about it in terms of photoshop instead of a video editing package is exactly the issue. There are 1440 images in one minute of video alone. Of course this all ignores that the extra material is not evenly split on both sides
of the film, so widening the image would ruin the framing of the shots.

How many times is extra stuff going to pop out into scenes? That floodlight or whatever it was popped up for about 2 seconds in that holodeck scene. I guess we won't really know unless someone releases a few mins of footage of what the entire content of the film contains with no cropping of any sort. That's highly unlikely to ever happen.
Anyway, the lack of widescreen has really not bothered me at all. It's not one of my complaints. I simply put forth the idea.

After the first year or two they will lower the cost of the Blu-ray for season 1. This is why I think we'll see $95. actual cost for the season set on Amazon and Best Buy. Of course the Suggested retail price will be $120.

I could swing $95 for S1. Some great episodes in it that are only hurt by the horrible quality of FX at the time.

Well actually it is not that hard to recreate shots in CG. I am doing it all the time for my own project, and sometimes the shots look much better than the original ones. Adding a little detail here and there helps to make them more authentic:
Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZstJ1oxNZQ
Game Cut Scene/Recreation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYp1hKxWLs
You see it is actually an opportunity.

That is some amazing work there man!!! I loved the first one in particular!!! If people can do this on their home PC's, I can't believe CBS is struggling so much to even make half decent CGI sequences on the final product!

They look way better than the original FX. They werent designed to be "modern" FX.

This is annoying, when people start comparing what they believe to be "subpar" FX for TOS-R. They had to keep the FX looking as close as possible to the tone of the live action sequences. It would look ridiculous to have starbases that looked as detailed as the Spacedock contrasting the indoor sets (and even other objects in proximity, like the Enterprise itself, or other ships)

 

[NewHorizon]

I only complain because TOS-R got the treatment I wanted. I was hoping the same for TNG-R, that's all.

TOS-R sure didn't get the treatment I would have wanted for it.
The project was far too big for the time frame and budget they were expected to churn it out on. Three seasons of new effects in two years? At least with this project the effects are already filmed, the time consuming part will be recompositing them and rebuilding the episodes....which is a massive project unto itself.

How many times is extra stuff going to pop out into scenes? That floodlight or whatever it was popped up for about 2 seconds in that holodeck scene.

Well, there was some more lighting visible in another scene in farpoint. I don't think anyone has posted their findings for the other episodes yet. Regardless, to expect them to paint out equipment frame by frame on a project of this size, and still have the project turn out good is asking a lot.

This is annoying, when people start comparing what they believe to be "subpar" FX for TOS-R. They had to keep the FX looking as close as possible to the tone of the live action sequences.

This is my main issue with TOS-R...they did not keep the FX looking as close as possible to the tone of the original footage. In a small handful of episodes they did manage to get the work to look like it was the original studio lighting and model, but the rest of the time the quality was all over the place. Some shots looked like scenes replicated from the movies, others looked worse than fan offerings found online. Overall the new cgi did not fit the show. Had Darren Dochterman been allowed to bring his skills to the project, then the cgi would have fit within the show. He has emulated everything from the studio lighting, right down to the type of lenses they used on the cameras back in the sixties.

 

[Ian Keldon]

I'll wait and see if the library gets these...$90-120/season is highway robbery.

There's no reason why a season set should go for more than $30.

 

[ATimson]

I'll wait and see if the library gets these...$90-120/season is highway robbery.

There's no reason why a season set should go for more than $30.

At $30 - which means $15 going to CBS, and the retailer gets the other half - I'd be surprised if they're making back their materials & manufacturing costs, much less the cost to create the content.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

I only complain because TOS-R got the treatment I wanted. I was hoping the same for TNG-R, that's all.

TOS-R sure didn't get the treatment I would have wanted for it.
The project was far too big for the time frame and budget they were expected to churn it out on. Three seasons of new effects in two years? At least with this project the effects are already filmed, the time consuming part will be recompositing them and rebuilding the episodes....which is a massive project unto itself.

How many times is extra stuff going to pop out into scenes? That floodlight or whatever it was popped up for about 2 seconds in that holodeck scene.

Well, there was some more lighting visible in another scene in farpoint. I don't think anyone has posted their findings for the other episodes yet. Regardless, to expect them to paint out equipment frame by frame on a project of this size, and still have the project turn out good is asking a lot.

This is annoying, when people start comparing what they believe to be "subpar" FX for TOS-R. They had to keep the FX looking as close as possible to the tone of the live action sequences.

This is my main issue with TOS-R...they did not keep the FX looking as close as possible to the tone of the original footage. In a small handful of episodes they did manage to get the work to look like it was the original studio lighting and model, but the rest of the time the quality was all over the place. Some shots looked like scenes replicated from the movies, others looked worse than fan offerings found online. Overall the new cgi did not fit the show. Had Darren Dochterman been allowed to bring his skills to the project, then the cgi would have fit within the show. He has emulated everything from the studio lighting, right down to the type of lenses they used on the cameras back in the sixties.

There's really no point using the latest Computer technology to make things look as bad as they did in the 60s, complete waste of everyone's time.

 

[Ian Keldon]

I'll wait and see if the library gets these...$90-120/season is highway robbery.

There's no reason why a season set should go for more than $30.

At $30 - which means $15 going to CBS, and the retailer gets the other half - I'd be surprised if they're making back their materials & manufacturing costs, much less the cost to create the content.

Horse manure!

$30-40 is where just about everything else sells, why should Trek sell (even the old standard-def version of TOS) at 3-4 times that?

 

[ATimson]

Horse manure!

$30-40 is where just about everything else sells, why should Trek sell (even the old standard-def version of TOS) at 3-4 times that?

What other shows are selling 7-disc Blu-ray sets for $30?

 

[Ian Keldon]

Horse manure!

$30-40 is where just about everything else sells, why should Trek sell (even the old standard-def version of TOS) at 3-4 times that?

What other shows are selling 7-disc Blu-ray sets for $30?

I don't know about Blu Ray specifically, but the standard price for season sets is between 30 and 40 dollars with a very few up to 50.

Stargate, new BSG, X-files, etc all retail in that range., barring a sale or going to Wal-Mart.

Explain why Trek routinely sells for 3x that or more per season.

 

[Trekker4747]

You know, I'm watching the series again on DVD and I'm in early Season 5, as I watch it and pay more attention to details I think I find I almost prefer the 4-foot model to the 6-foot model. While I think the larger model is more graceful, the added detail on the 4-foot model does add something. But the under-the-saucer shot of the model that often used for an establishing shot just looks crummy and the "thickness" of some of the ship's edges (particularly around the deflector) are much more obvious. But when the camera is over the ship's dorsal side or the ship is making a maneuver of sorts (I love the "3-point turn" thing it does from time-to-time) it does look good. Just the under-saucer details and edge thickness is a bit much.

 

[ATimson]

Explain why Trek routinely sells for 3x that or more per season.

I'm not going to defend their DVD prices - they are high. But only $30 per season for the Blu-rays is simply wishful thinking on your part, not a realistic price.

 

[Pseudo]

Horse manure!

$30-40 is where just about everything else sells, why should Trek sell (even the old standard-def version of TOS) at 3-4 times that?

What other shows are selling 7-disc Blu-ray sets for $30?

I don't know about Blu Ray specifically,

Hokey dokey.

So, if I'm getting you right. You're saying that you don't know how much new releases of TV series on Blu Ray cost, but apparently the TNG Blu Ray's vastly exceed this amount that you aren't aware of the actual numerical value of.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Horse manure!

$30-40 is where just about everything else sells, why should Trek sell (even the old standard-def version of TOS) at 3-4 times that?

What other shows are selling 7-disc Blu-ray sets for $30?

I don't know about Blu Ray specifically, but the standard price for season sets is between 30 and 40 dollars with a very few up to 50.

Stargate, new BSG, X-files, etc all retail in that range., barring a sale or going to Wal-Mart.

Explain why Trek routinely sells for 3x that or more per season.

Looking at other Blu-ray titles on Blu-ray.com, specifically series that are in the sci-fi/fantasy genre and have at least 1000 minutes running time per season... most list for between $60-$70 and sell for around $35-$45 on Amazon. The three Star Trek: The Original Series sets list for $130 each and sell today for around $65-$70 each (cheaper if you buy the complete set). When they originally came out in 2009, I paid an average of $55 each.

So we're only really talking about 1.5x-2x the cost of other equivalent shows. But there's a crucial difference: most of those other shows have either recently been produced or are currently being produced and HD masters already exist for them. The Star Trek series (with the exception of Enterprise) require re-scanning from archived negatives, they must be re-edited from scratch and their VFX have to be either re-composited or re-created. So a premium price is to be expected.

 

[GalaxyX]

This is my main issue with TOS-R...they did not keep the FX looking as close as possible to the tone of the original footage. In a small handful of episodes they did manage to get the work to look like it was the original studio lighting and model, but the rest of the time the quality was all over the place. Some shots looked like scenes replicated from the movies, others looked worse than fan offerings found online. Overall the new cgi did not fit the show. Had Darren Dochterman been allowed to bring his skills to the project, then the cgi would have fit within the show. He has emulated everything from the studio lighting, right down to the type of lenses they used on the cameras back in the sixties.

What I saw them do is clean up the live action footage as much as possible so it *didn't* look as 60's (tried to make it looks as much of the 23rd century as possible with the source footage). This included major work on special FX used in live action sequences, like the phaser beams looking like actual energy, and not some hand drawn lines using neon colored crayons.

While the CGI did not always match the live action, I chalk this up to the fact that the budget did not allow it. Sure I would have loved to see some radically detailed models of the Enterprise, as well as Space Stations. But I'm happy with what they did. It makes the series 10 times more watchable.

There's really no point using the latest Computer technology to make things look as bad as they did in the 60s, complete waste of everyone's time.

TNG needed the same treatment as TOS. It needed to be livened up. What they are doing right now is sticking the show in the 80's, but with better clarity. When I pop in TOS-R, I feel like I'm watching a 60's show made with early 2000 film technology. When I see TNG-R, I feel like I'm watching the exact same series, but a bit sharper and cleaner. Initial reaction is good, but the show will suffer staying dated.

 

[NewHorizon]

There's really no point using the latest Computer technology to make things look as bad as they did in the 60s, complete waste of everyone's time.

Darren didn't use current tech to make it look as bad as it did in the sixties. He used current tech to emulate the tech that would have been available to film makers back when TOS was made. The aesthetic of the show intact. The approach of his Trek Enhanced was to respect the tech that was available at the time, but also consider what they could have accomplished with a higher weekly budget.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L7EB7iyfAc

It is far from a 1 to 1 copy, but the work matches the show.