The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!

[Dac]

Using Richter's model for TNG-R would be no different than using Koerner's model for TatV (other than Richter's is better :P ). They're both digital artists who happen to be Trek fans and got to work on the show.


At this point we don't know anything other than what we've been told (the CG model has not been used yet). Anything other than that is pure speculation.

Yes it would. Gabe was working at Eden FX at the time who had the gig to work on Enterprise. To my knowledge, while Tobias is a pro who's been doing it for many years, he has no official relationship with TNG-R. Unless of course its just kept quiet.

And Richter works for The Light Works, which is working on other Star Trek related projects for CBS. Would it really be unreasonable it think they hired his company to work on this too?

My whole point, was regardless if he is or isn't working on it, there will not be any official announcement, just as there is no official announcement that The Light Works is affiliated with TNG-HD.

And the difference between Gabe and Tobias, was that Gabe was working at the actual studio who had the job to do FX. To my knowledge Tobias does not work at CBS in LA in a role animating shots. Pretty big difference.

 

[trekker670]

And the difference between Gabe and Tobias, was that Gabe was working at the actual studio who had the job to do FX. To my knowledge Tobias does not work at CBS in LA in a role animating shots. Pretty big difference.

And Gabe doesn't work for CBS either, he works for a separate company that was hired. The same could be the situation with Tobias, his company was hired to create the digital models or (more likely given the information we have so far) it's not his model at all since NO CG shots have been released, according to the creative team.

 

[sojourner]

Exactly. People keep jumping to the conclusion that it IS Richter's model when he denies it, Mike Okuda denies it AND there's no way the model, in its currently announced state could do some of the shots (saucer separation). People have also noted the huge scale difference between the filmed model and his CG version. Ihighly doubt CBS would use such a different model.

A. Tobias hasn't denied it.
B. Okudo did not deny the existence of a cgi model nor it's use in the future.
C. "People" have not noted the scale difference between the filmed model and Tobia's cgi model, you have. And that has already been refuted do to the differences caused by focal length from a physical camera as opposed to a CG generated image.

The only point I really have doubts on is Okudo's assertion that CGI had not been used to this point. Evidence seems to point to the contrary.

 

[trekker670]

A. He has, read his forum
B. The basis of this being Tobias' model is the shots released thus far, which according to Okuda don't contain the CG model
C. I didn't state anything about the scale difference, another member pointed that out. The focus length is speculative at best.


Also of note from Sci-Fi Meshes:

stuff I made on comission I always try to make my clients happy and get the ok prior to showing anything on the web. In some cases, it´s in the contract or an NDA

It doesn't make any sense for him to release the model and then deny its use. If anything it would help with the promotion of TNG-R.

Also note the difference in the Nacels between the released shot and Richter's model.
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=91074&d=1308765724

 

[Dac]

And the difference between Gabe and Tobias, was that Gabe was working at the actual studio who had the job to do FX. To my knowledge Tobias does not work at CBS in LA in a role animating shots. Pretty big difference.

And Gabe doesn't work for CBS either, he works for a separate company that was hired. The same could be the situation with Tobias, his company was hired to create the digital models or (more likely given the information we have so far) it's not his model at all since NO CG shots have been released, according to the creative team.

Gabe has nothing to do with TNG-R. I'm talking about his work at Eden during Enterprise. You said that instance was no different, I was saying it is different, due to the fact that the Light Works seemingly don't have an open public relationship with CBS the same way Eden FX had a big public contract with Paramount.

That's not saying Richter hasn't provided any assets, just that its not being handled the same way. That's the only point I'm trying to get across.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

AND there's no way the model, in its currently announced state could do some of the shots (saucer separation).

If you look at Richter's post on the 21st of June 2011 (7 months ago!) he writes that the model IS separated, he just hasn't modeled the inside detail. Then he writes, "I´ll do that once I really need it."

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/...USS-Enterprise&p=528148&viewfull=1#post528148

 

[trekker670]

Gabe has nothing to do with TNG-R. I'm talking about his work at Eden during Enterprise. You said that instance was no different, I was saying it is different, due to the fact that the Light Works seemingly don't have an open public relationship with CBS the same way Eden FX had a big public contract with Paramount.

That's not saying Richter hasn't provided any assets, just that its not being handled the same way. That's the only point I'm trying to get across.

I'm using Gabe and TatV as a parallel to Richter and TNG-R. Light Works does have a public relationship with the franchise, they're working on the Infinite Space game.

The point I'm trying to get across is that we don't know either way, and given the facts we have we shouldn't believe that Richter is involved at all since the creative team have stated that we don't have a shot of CG ship to compare with.

AND there's no way the model, in its currently announced state could do some of the shots (saucer separation).

If you look at Richter's post on the 21st of June 2011 (7 months ago!) he writes that the model IS separated, he just hasn't modeled the inside detail. Then he writes, "I´ll do that once I really need it."

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/...USS-Enterprise&p=528148&viewfull=1#post528148

And he never stated that it was "needed" or finished. Since that post was referring to a request for a shot of the separated ship and given the amount of pictures he's released throughout the thread, it would be reasonable to assume he'd release a picture when it was done as that would be a big accomplishment in the progress of the model.


Again, I reiterate that we have no hard evidence that it's the same model. The facts point us to the fact that what we've seen so far has been original footage with some matte paintings and NOT the CG model they have "just in case."

 

[beamMe]

Exactly. People keep jumping to the conclusion that it IS Richter's model when he denies it, Mike Okuda denies it AND there's no way the model, in its currently announced state could do some of the shots (saucer separation). People have also noted the huge scale difference between the filmed model and his CG version. Ihighly doubt CBS would use such a different model.

What we see IS Richter's model.
You can never compare a perfect front/side/to and bottom-view out of a CG-programme with a real photography that has distortions caused by perspective.

Also note the difference in the Nacels between the released shot and Richter's model.
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=91074&d=1308765724

That is a work-in-progress render. His renders of the more finalized mesh look quite different.

 

[beamMe]

Again, I reiterate that we have no hard evidence that it's the same model. The facts point us to the fact that what we've seen so far has been original footage with some matte paintings and NOT the CG model they have "just in case."

You are quite wrong.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

A. He has, read his forum
B. The basis of this being Tobias' model is the shots released thus far, which according to Okuda don't contain the CG model
C. I didn't state anything about the scale difference, another member pointed that out. The focus length is speculative at best.

A: To be fair, Richter said he wasn't working on TNG-R on 23rd May 2011, the same day he started the thread. According to Okuda himself, CBS started working on TNG-R about six months ago. So it's still possible that that they acquired his model later on.

B: One of the shots must be a 3D CG model, this one, because it moves past the camera, changing perspective and it's not the miniature.

C: The photograph that particular poster used definitely has telltale expansion distortion on the saucer due to the wider angle of view.

 

[trekker670]

What we see IS Richter's model.

State your source. It's all speculative at best. You think you know better than the creative team working on this project...

That is a work-in-progress render. His renders of the more finalized mesh look quite different.

I again point out the Nacelles in the photo you posted. The copper rings have details not present in the shots we've been shown.

You are quite wrong.

Then we agree to disagree.

 

[Dac]

Infinite space is not analogous to a TV production.

At least two shots, The one from Inner Light where it drops out of warp, and the saucer sep have to be CG, partly because they'll be in motion where new areas are revealed (a matte would be impractical) and because one of them matches up identically to a previously known CG model.

Which brings me back to the point I've been trying to make for the past couple of pages:

CBS will NOT officially confirm anything is done by anyone else other than those who are working at or with CBS digital in some official form. We know that's not true, CBS Digital knows it, but because of all the corporate BS in the biz, we probably won't get a big public yes or no answer. If you go and ask the guys yourself, I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you, but it won't be out and about in a big official publicity piece.

 

[trekker670]

A. He has, read his forum
B. The basis of this being Tobias' model is the shots released thus far, which according to Okuda don't contain the CG model
C. I didn't state anything about the scale difference, another member pointed that out. The focus length is speculative at best.

A: To be fair, Richter said he wasn't working on TNG-R on 23rd May 2011, the same day he started the thread. According to Okuda himself, CBS started working on TNG-R about six months ago. So it's still possible that that they acquired his model later on.

B: One of the shots must be a 3D CG model, this one, because it moves past the camera, changing perspective and it's not the miniature.

C: The photograph that particular poster used definitely has telltale expansion distortion on the saucer due to the wider angle of view.

CBS will NOT officially confirm anything is done by anyone else other than those who are working at or with CBS digital in some official form. We know that's not true, CBS Digital knows it, but because of all the corporate BS in the biz, we probably won't get a big public yes or no answer. If you go and ask the guys yourself, I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you, but it won't be out and about in a big official publicity piece.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm simply saying that we don't have enough proof one way or another to know for sure whether they're using his model or another or none.

 

[22 Stars]

Ok guys, away for a day, so what have I missed Good to see people aren't at each others throats lol.

 

[beamMe]

I again point out the Nacelles in the photo you posted. The copper rings have details not present in the shots we've been shown.

You mean we can't make them out perfectly because they bleed into each other because of the angle, right?

I'm not disagreeing. I'm simply saying that we don't have enough proof one way or another to know for sure whether they're using his model or another or none.

Just for the fun of it: count how many of the lit windows match up on the CBS shot and Richter's ortho of the mesh:

 

[Maxwell Everett]

I'm not disagreeing. I'm simply saying that we don't have enough proof one way or another to know for sure whether they're using his model or another or none.

I think we can tentatively eliminate "none". I'd argue that the opening shot of "The Inner Light" constitutes prima facie evidence that they are using a CG model, regardless of the public statements of Michael Okuda. He may simply be mistaken. I think when we see it in motion we'll all have to agree it's a CG model.

 

[trekker670]

I again point out the Nacelles in the photo you posted. The copper rings have details not present in the shots we've been shown.

You mean we can't make them out perfectly because they bleed into each other because of the angle, right?

You CAN make out the details and look at the pic I posted before. They're ribbed in his model, smooth in the shot.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm simply saying that we don't have enough proof one way or another to know for sure whether they're using his model or another or none.

Just for the fun of it: count how many of the lit windows match up on the CBS shot and Richter's ortho of the mesh:

Unfortunately, I have a life outside of counting the windows on a model. I will say that the pattern is similar.

All this does is bring me back to my point (and Dac's) we won't know for sure unless they announce officially or someone asks Tobias. Until then, we're going to keep going in circles and that's pointless. We agree to disagree and that's it.

 

[trekker670]

I'm not disagreeing. I'm simply saying that we don't have enough proof one way or another to know for sure whether they're using his model or another or none.

I think we can tentatively eliminate "none". I'd argue that the opening shot of "The Inner Light" constitutes prima facie evidence that they are using a CG model, regardless of the public statements of Michael Okuda. He may simply be mistaken. I think when we see it in motion we'll all have to agree it's a CG model.

I do agree with that, I just didn't want to count that out as a possibility since that is was Mr. Okuda stated.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

I again point out the Nacelles in the photo you posted. The copper rings have details not present in the shots we've been shown.

You mean we can't make them out perfectly because they bleed into each other because of the angle, right?

You CAN make out the details and look at the pic I posted before. They're ribbed in his model, smooth in the shot.

I think beamMe is right. You can just make out the ribbed () detail:

 

[Dac]

I count 5 a piece in both of them. And should go without saying, that a CG model can be altered very easily, any changes could be down to folks at CBS tweaking it.