The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

[indranee]

Ah, think I have an answer.

I'm willing to speculate that the people whjo didn't like the Kelvin sequence ar not parents. Not that you have to be a parent to like it, there are other beats in there too, but the whole parental thing could very well turn some people aside.

no, that's not it. otherwise I wouldn't be moved. I am not a parent.

I think it's about loss. deep, unutterable loss. if you've experienced it or at least have come close to it, you feel this scene more deeply than do the ones who haven't.

it's very important that we don't judge each other in terms of how we all feel toward this scene. we will all feel loss in our lives, at some point. some already have (like yours truly), some haven't... yet.

the scene is not about nobility or even sacrifice, really. it's about pain, unmitigated pain. something you can't do anything about. something that makes you cringe a bit inside to even think of facing. in the end, it's all up to our individual experiences in how we digest a scene like this.

 

[indranee]

You're right. Strictly speaking, it is contrived. But it's awesome anyway.

Hell, no!

It's one of those scenes, like Spock's conversation with Kirk during his death at the end of TWoK, that bears no resemblance to how people would behave in real life, but works because it's a distillation of an emotion presented directly and succinctly on-screeen.

Now that scene really works for me whereas the one on the Kelvin simply does not. I think one of the reasons is that I can accept that both characters are actually there at that moment whereas I still have big problems with this notions of having the family along for the ride the way Star Trek tends to depict it.

What makes it even worse for me is that I find most on-screen births, including the time leading up to the birth, to be nigh unwatchable. They tend to be overdramatized to the point of parody in my opinion. And this one is no exception in my opinion.

And in the last moments they start picking a name? Say what?!?

"Tiberius."
"No, that's terrible. Let's call him...Jim." Ugh!

That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .

And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.

No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .

Jim Kirk's mother was not "family on the ship". she was a Starfleet officer posted to the Kelvin.

 

[MyCylon]

^
Interesting. When is that stated in the film?

 

[indranee]

nowhere in the movie. it's either in the novelization or somewhere else. I'll find it for you and post again. but, I know for a fact that she wasn't "family". there were no families in Pre-Picard times in Trek.

also, if you check, there are no other "families" on the Kelvin, either. she was the only one having a baby.

 

[Skywalker]

Winona being in Starfleet would also explain why she was off-world when Jim drove his dad's antique car into the quarry. I doubt she'd have willingly left her sons alone with their uncle (or stepfather, whichever they decide to make canon).

 

[archeryguy1701]

^
Interesting. When is that stated in the film?

When Kirk is running off with the car, the uncle threatens him about misbehaving when his mom is offworld. While it's not explicitly stated, you could probably make a safe bet that it's something along the lines of being an officer or just a general crew member.

 

[Gepard]

That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .

Welcome to my experience with the entirety of Star Trek XI.

And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.

No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .

Meh. You're still wrong. In my opinion. Fortunately, your love of nuBSG will protect you in the coming purge.

 

[MyCylon]

nowhere in the movie. it's either in the novelization or somewhere else. I'll find it for you and post again.

No need to, thank you. I was simply wondering whether or not I had missed some detail in the film.

but, I know for a fact that she wasn't "family". there were no families in Pre-Picard times in Trek.

I certainly remember that from TOS. But I'd consider this a reboot. So basically, everything's possible.

also, if you check, there are no other "families" on the Kelvin, either. she was the only one having a baby.

If I were to be very nitpicky, I would say there were none that we saw . But I suppose it's fair enough to assume she was a pregnant crew member (whether it's wise to have your child in space is another question, I suppose).

Winona being in Starfleet would also explain why she was off-world when Jim drove his dad's antique car into the quarry. I doubt she'd have willingly left her sons alone with their uncle (or stepfather, whichever they decide to make canon).

Unless they were such troublemakers that she wouldn't have them along .

^
Interesting. When is that stated in the film?

When Kirk is running off with the car, the uncle threatens him about misbehaving when his mom is offworld. While it's not explicitly stated, you could probably make a safe bet that it's something along the lines of being an officer or just a general crew member.

Hmm, that's quite a lot to infer from just that line, I think. Looking at the events aboard the Kelvin, I think it's just as easy to imagine that she quit Starfleet (going along with the assumption that she was a member of Kelvin's crew) after her husband's death and is offworld for some other reason.


I suppose in the end it comes down to a communications issue, if you will. I saw the movie (I'd read very, very little about it beforehand) and thought, oh no, they've got families on board again. I didn't think she was a member of the crew or, at least, a member of Starfleet.
Maybe that's just me. But that's how I read those scenes.

 

[MyCylon]

That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .

Welcome to my experience with the entirety of Star Trek XI.

And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.

No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .

Meh. You're still wrong. In my opinion. Fortunately, your love of nuBSG will protect you in the coming purge.

I knew it would prove useful in the future .

 

[Gepard]

Welcome to my experience with the entirety of Star Trek XI.

At least we can laugh about it.
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.
.
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[FanFanatic]

In "Balance of Terror", the episdoe began with Kirk attempting to perform a wedding. (If completed, an "instant" family on board during TOS. )Perhaps Winona was on her way back to Earth. Originally, Kirk was born in Iowa, and the intense battle with Nero may have "triggered" the birth a little earlier than it had originally occurred. Just a thought.

 

[poundpuppy29]

Just popping on to say I LOVED THE MOVIE STAR TREK I was very skeptical of the reboot but let me say this Trekkie loved it JJ I take it all back you can uses the old characters you don't have to make up your own I was wrong. I know he doesn't need my approval.

Just let me say OMG

Spoiler: I am in shock over

They destroyed Vulcan I can't believe they destroyed Vulcun

 

[Agent Richard07]

I suppose I feel that conversation simply shouldn't have been happening in the first place. To me, personally, it just seems incredibly ridiculous. The valiant starship Captain riding himself and his ship to their deaths while making up names for his unborn son? Honestly, that just makes me cringe.

So had it been my choice, that scene wouldn't have been in there in the first place. However, if I was forced to include it for some reason, I think I'd probably have them talking about the simple fact that they're both afraid as well as bidding farewell to each other. There definitely would have to be a reference to the unborn child. But picking his name amid phaser fire, to me, just seems silly.

I think one of the problems I have is that the scene is so bent on trying to impress on us how Jim Kirk was literally born in battle. The desire to convey that idea goes so far that even his first name has to be picked IN BATTLE! That's how AMAZING the guy is - he's born in battle, and his name is chosen in battle!

IMHO that's just going way over the top without achieving any form of additional emotional payoff. For example, I think it would have been far, far more effective and a lot less laughable had they already chosen his name. That way, his father could have referenced the child by name instead of us having to go through a game of what's his name going to be...

Seriously, I'm happy for everyone who enjoyed the scene. I just can't possibly understand how it didn't make you want to leave the cinema .

I noticed that you've only been commenting on the actual birth scenes. What about the rest of the intro? I loved it, but it was because of a number of things. First off, I felt that it captured the spirit of Trek with a ship confronting the dark unknown. Then there's the whole style and tone of Kirk and the Kelvin meeting their end. Instead of loudness and excitment, we got a sombre musical score playing over the muted action, something I thought was very effective. I also loved the segue into the title sequence. For me, the birth was the least of what was going on.

 

[dragunzng]

Ah, think I have an answer.

I'm willing to speculate that the people whjo didn't like the Kelvin sequence ar not parents. Not that you have to be a parent to like it, there are other beats in there too, but the whole parental thing could very well turn some people aside.

Interesting. I suppose it's possible. However, my first thought was that it might be more of a North American vs. European thing, for example.

I think the non-parent thing could have something to do with it. I enjoy Supernatural quite a bit because of the way the Sam and Dean's fraternal relationship is portrayed, and sometimes it affects me emotionally in ways I'd be embarrassed to admit about such a shallow show, but I've got a brother so there you go.

For the record, I'm not a parent and I also thought the George and Winona scene was a little cheesy. Overall though I was floored by the opening sequence, especially that scene, a long shot showing the Narada in comparison to the Kelvin, which just illustrated the futility of the situation.

 

[Australis]

Ah, think I have an answer.

I'm willing to speculate that the people whjo didn't like the Kelvin sequence ar not parents. Not that you have to be a parent to like it, there are other beats in there too, but the whole parental thing could very well turn some people aside.

no, that's not it. otherwise I wouldn't be moved. I am not a parent.

I think it's about loss. deep, unutterable loss. if you've experienced it or at least have come close to it, you feel this scene more deeply than do the ones who haven't.

it's very important that we don't judge each other in terms of how we all feel toward this scene. we will all feel loss in our lives, at some point. some already have (like yours truly), some haven't... yet.

the scene is not about nobility or even sacrifice, really. it's about pain, unmitigated pain. something you can't do anything about. something that makes you cringe a bit inside to even think of facing. in the end, it's all up to our individual experiences in how we digest a scene like this.

That's sorta the point I was trying to make. I was really tired when I posted that, and still really tired (only got about 4 hrs sleep). I knew not all people who got into that scene were parents, but tried to express that for some it's being a parent, for some it's 'unutterable loss' as you said, for others it would be the final goodbye of a loving relationship.

It's still good, still powerful, still amazing to see in a Trek film.

 

[InactiveLex]

I was very disapointed by this movie.

I can understand this movie will make it well with the mainstream. But as a fan of the TNG myself I highly dislike what they have done here.

My main problems with the movie:

-Vulcan gets destroyed.
How is this possible in all earlier series Vulcan still excisted
-The Romulans were changed into shallow 13 in a dozen bad guys like in other movies. Also they just gave them a complete make over to make them look "cool" Tbh at first I thought they were Remans and not Romulans
-What's up with the Spock and Uhara snuggling. I guess they just had to force some romance in it...
-Kirk's pregnant mother aboard the USS Kelvin suggest there were families aboard the USS Kelvin. That did not happen untill The Next Generation on the USS Enterprise D. Was his mother a part of the crew? That would be the only explenation.
- Captain Pike and the others seems to know about Kirk's future as they so simply accept him as their leader. Guess they have gipsy talents and can look into the future.
-Their are way more action and fightings scene's in it. It felt very un star trekky and more Star wars like. The story was pressed away to make place for action packed scene's. That is not Star Trek.

I can come up with more most likely. But as a fan. No I did not like this movie.

 

[MyCylon]

I noticed that you've only been commenting on the actual birth scenes. What about the rest of the intro? I loved it, but it was because of a number of things. First off, I felt that it captured the spirit of Trek with a ship confronting the dark unknown. Then there's the whole style and tone of Kirk and the Kelvin meeting their end. Instead of loudness and excitment, we got a sombre musical score playing over the muted action, something I thought was very effective. I also loved the segue into the title sequence. For me, the birth was the least of what was going on.

You're right, I've been focusing solely on the birth scenes. As for the rest of the intro, I enjoyed it. The shots of Robau stepping onto the bridge were quite stunning, for example. It was a great way to re-enter the Trek universe yet sense that things would be different. The visual style and the lighting had a lot to do with that, I think.

I also thought that the way the end itself comes about was very effective. I'll admit that I'd actually forgotten about that. But yes, that was really good.

Leaving the birth scenes aside, I still have to smaller complaints or a complaint and a bit of a question, if you will. For one, I thought the ongoing battle was that bit too much of a frenzy or an assault in blinking, colorful and bright lights. For much of the actual battle, I didn't really know what was going on. I know it was probably intended to be a frenzy, with chaos aboard ship and all, but I prefer if I have more of a sense of what's going on.

Then I kind of have to question Captain Robau's decision to basically turn himself in. I don't really see what he hopes to gain. Plus I'm not quite sure when the ship loses its Warp drive. I seem to remember wondering at one point - before they lose it - why they don't just get the hell out of there. Maybe somebody can clear the sequence up a bit for me. I know I came out of it wondering if the loss of the ship and part of its crew couldn't have been avoided.

So, all in all, I actually liked the intro. It was certainly effective in parts. Certainly, as you can see from my other posts, the birth scenes proved to be very distracting for me. In thinking about it some more, I realized that they pretty much single handedly killed any emotional response I might have otherwise gotten from the sequence as a whole since those scenes seemed so forced and melodramatic to me.

 

[Zeppster]

-Kirk's pregnant mother aboard the USS Kelvin suggest there were families aboard the USS Kelvin. That did not happen untill The Next Generation on the USS Enterprise D. Was his mother a part of the crew? That would be the only explenation.

Hasn't this been explained that she was also an officer on the ship?

 

[InactiveLex]

-Kirk's pregnant mother aboard the USS Kelvin suggest there were families aboard the USS Kelvin. That did not happen untill The Next Generation on the USS Enterprise D. Was his mother a part of the crew? That would be the only explenation.

Hasn't this been explained that she was also an officer on the ship?

I didn't noticed it during the movie. The only thing that I noticed that seems to hint she might be in Starfleet is when Kirks uncle calls him and mentions to Kirk who took his car for a joy ride his mother is not on earth.

And the fact she is aboard the Uss Kelvin in the first place is a hint in itlself I guess.

Anyway she probably is a part of the crew. Maybe even a officer I don't know.

 

[Borgminister]

-Kirk's pregnant mother aboard the USS Kelvin suggest there were families aboard the USS Kelvin. That did not happen untill The Next Generation on the USS Enterprise D. Was his mother a part of the crew? That would be the only explenation.

Hasn't this been explained that she was also an officer on the ship?

I didn't noticed it during the movie. The only thing that I noticed that seems to hint she might be in Starfleet is when Kirks uncle calls him and mentions to Kirk who took his car for a joy ride his mother is not on earth.

And the fact she is aboard the Uss Kelvin in the first place is a hint in itlself I guess.

Anyway she probably is a part of the crew. Maybe even a officer I don't know.

They should've had her wearing the standard-issue, color-rank-coded birthing bear, dammit!