The Motion Picture - I remembered it differently...

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I usually find those people complaining about TMP being "the most boringest" are usually like Plinkett says - aged around thirteen with the attention spans of mosquitoes...Most thinking adults really like it.

Nope, sorry. I was an adult when it premiered - which in fact may have been one reason I was underwhelmed by it.

That is, assuming that your intent was to so characterize adults who find the movie boring - your attempted mockery of those people by using the phrase "the most boringest" is a failed parody which renders your intent there somewhat muddled.

"Most thinking adults," BTW, have never sat through this or any Trek movie - period. So even if you could offer some evidence that you represent "most thinking Trek fans" in some sense superior to those who dislike the film - and you can't - your observation fails as a simplistic and thoughtless overgeneralization.

 

[Psion]

Well, if they ever decided to re-re-fix TMP I'd hope they keep the DE edit structurally (flawed as it is), and when they re-replace the VFX they hopefully actually do what the original intent was instead of adding all the fankwank crap they stuck into the DE (the pointless stardate chiron, redesigning San Francisco and the air tram bay into something that doesn't match the original designs, etc., and the foolish idea that the sparkles that make the bridge to V'ger would be animated "on twos" when nothing else in the film is animated on twos).

DS9Sega, for those of us who are both unfamiliar with the term and challenged sufficiently to be unable to use Google, could you spare a moment to tell us what "on twos" means?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

DS9Sega, for those of us who are both unfamiliar with the term and challenged sufficiently to be unable to use Google, could you spare a moment to tell us what "on twos" means?

I think it's slang for a pact that Bill Hanna and Joe Barbera made with Satan in return for earthly success.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

... and there should be some logic to who wears the beige, grey, brown, and white uniforms of whatever style.

There was. Officers could choose between beige or grey/blue, depending on personal preference and/or skin colouration. Enlisted crew wore brown. Specialists (eg. medics, engineers) wore white. Station staff wore green.

The actual breakdown was supposed to be that only command officers — such as Kirk, Decker, Spock, Scotty, and McCoy — wore blue-gray, while all other bridge officers wore beige.

However, TPTB stuck Ilia in blue-gray (probably to make her stand out from Sulu, Uhura and Chekov, and because she probably looked better in it). TPTB also did the same to Billy Van Zandt's character — possibly for the same reasons.

Of course, Chapel wore blue-gray at the end. Then again, she was supposed to be CMO before McCoy got conscripted.

For me, it was the way that I thought Star Trek should've looked like to begin with, had GR & Co. had the money back in the 60s. It was a realistic, serious approach to a concept that I was already in love with.

True enough. It was very much Star Trek writ large in the way it deserved.

That's how I felt about the Abrams movie. It was everything I remembered about Star Trek as a child — loud, colorful, and adventurous.

Of course, I prefer the somber, naturalistic drama of the early first season. But, let's face it, TOS was a colorful adventure that had spunk and funk, which is what the Abrams movie chose to emphasize.

That being said, I also like the scope of TMP and the attempt to elevate the material beyond its pulp science-fiction roots and into the realm of speculative fiction. However, TMP falls short of the bar Roddenberry set up.

 

[Pauln6]

... and there should be some logic to who wears the beige, grey, brown, and white uniforms of whatever style.

There was. Officers could choose between beige or grey/blue, depending on personal preference and/or skin colouration. Enlisted crew wore brown. Specialists (eg. medics, engineers) wore white. Station staff wore green.

The actual breakdown was supposed to be that only command officers — such as Kirk, Decker, Spock, Scotty, and McCoy — wore blue-gray, while all other bridge officers wore beige.

However, TPTB stuck Ilia in blue-gray (probably to make her stand out from Sulu, Uhura and Chekov, and because she probably looked better in it). TPTB also did the same to Billy Van Zandt's character — possibly for the same reasons.

Of course, Chapel wore blue-gray at the end. Then again, she was supposed to be CMO before McCoy got conscripted.

Yeah it all went a bit wrong. There are plenty of non-comms wearing beige (like CPO Rand & DiFalco) and a fair few other officers in the Rec Deck scene wearing grey. Also the brown-uniformed guy that Spock pinches has a Lt stripe on his epaulets.

You can apply your own logic (grey for internal security, beige for tactical; beige for helm, grey for navigation Difalco was a beige fill in I suppose...) etc. The rest I'd just put down to costume errors.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That's how I felt about the Abrams movie. It was everything I remembered about Star Trek as a child — loud, colorful, and adventurous.

Of course, I prefer the somber, naturalistic drama of the early first season. But, let's face it, TOS was a colorful adventure that had spunk and funk, which is what the Abrams movie chose to emphasize.

Which was, of course, everything that people came out of ST:TMP asking "what happened to the fun parts?" about.

That being said, I also like the scope of TMP and the attempt to elevate the material beyond its pulp science-fiction roots and into the realm of speculative fiction.

Maybe eventually JJ can remake ST:TMP with some plot, color and lens flares.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The actual breakdown was supposed to be that only command officers — such as Kirk, Decker, Spock, Scotty, and McCoy — wore blue-gray, while all other bridge officers wore beige.

Not the memo I read. The existence of the simultaneous grey/blue and beige uniforms was the give an impression of individual choice within the parameters of uniform design. The same approach can be seen in the banking industry, and among flight service personnel, especially in the early 80s. A huge variety of ways tops and bottoms can be mixed and matched, while still keeping an overall "look".

Similarly, Spock's uniform has a "Vulcan collar", Ilia's leisure robe has a "Deltan collar" (while Saavik's in ST II did not), and the native American crewmembers were permitted to wear beads in their hair.

You can apply your own logic (grey for internal security, beige for tactical; beige for helm, grey for navigation Difalco was a beige fill in I suppose...) etc. The rest I'd just put down to costume errors.

No, the six division colours are featured on the round patch behind the Starfleet delta shield (or the epaulets, if worn): white = command, orange = science, green = medical, red = engineering, yellow = ship's services & helm, grey = security.

And Chief DiFalco may have been the chief navigator, not necessarily a chief petty officer. Seems sensible to me that if she just lost a member of her team in a dangerous mission, the chief navigator would take over the post.

 

[Pauln6]

The actual breakdown was supposed to be that only command officers — such as Kirk, Decker, Spock, Scotty, and McCoy — wore blue-gray, while all other bridge officers wore beige.

Not the memo I read. The existence of the simultaneous grey/blue and beige uniforms was the give an impression of individual choice within the parameters of uniform design. The same approach can be seen in the banking industry, and among flight service personnel, especially in the early 80s. A huge variety of ways tops and bottoms can be mixed and matched, while still keeping an overall "look".

Similarly, Spock's uniform has a "Vulcan collar", Ilia's leisure robe has a "Deltan collar" (while Saavik's in ST II did not), and the native American crewmembers were permitted to wear beads in their hair.

You can apply your own logic (grey for internal security, beige for tactical; beige for helm, grey for navigation Difalco was a beige fill in I suppose...) etc. The rest I'd just put down to costume errors.

No, the six division colours are featured on the round patch behind the Starfleet delta shield (or the epaulets, if worn): white = command, orange = science, green = medical, red = engineering, yellow = ship's services & helm, grey = security.

And Chief DiFalco may have been the chief navigator, not necessarily a chief petty officer. Seems sensible to me that if she just lost a member of her team in a dangerous mission, the chief navigator would take over the post.

Yeah I think I just prefer a more rigid colour scheme - not totally rigid but less random than what we got. I understand that both Chekov and the Rhaandarite were assigned to the security division but Chekov is serving at the tactical station (which would cover ship weapons operation such as phaser rooms and photon torpedo management) whereas the ensign is serving at internal security, which would cover guard deployment, weapons lockers, the brig, and landing party duty). It is feasible that different colour uniforms could denote the assignment on any particular ship.

You could also subdivide science officers between physical sciences and life sciences and/or sensors & computers, engineering between warp engines, impulse engines, environmental, weapons, ship's systems; ops could be divided between ship's flight systems, navigation, comms, operations (e.g. cargo), maintenance, etc. Different coloured uniforms could in theory be applied to these subdivisions.

EDIT: On that score we have to note the random subdivisions between departments that took place: Communications from Ops (Uhura) to Services/Eng (Uhura/Palmer) to Ops (Uhura TMP) to Science (Uhura TWoK) to Services (Security) (TNG). Helm from Command/Ops (Sulu) to Ops (Sulu TMP) to Eng (TWoK). Navigation from Command/Ops (Chekov) to Ops (Ilia/DiFaclo TMP) to Science (TWoK).

Chief Difalco has neither the arm bands nor epaulets. If she is a non-com then without epaulets there would be no way to know her rank anyway, which is why I think all uniforms should have both!

I think she must be a CPO though - when calling a crewman to the bridge it is customary to use their correct rank (the mess with Chief O'Brien notwithstanding). CPO's are essentially enlisted versions of commanders so there's nothing to say that a CPO couldn't be assigned as a chief navigator on a ship. However, the fact that Ilia is described earlier as the ship's navigator is highly suggestive of the fact that she was intended to be the main officer, especially as the post is often assigned to ensigns.

Chief DiFalco is decribed in the novel as a technician assigned to the navigation technical systems by Mr Scott but she is clearly Ops personnel, who would most likely be under Sulu's direct command so that doesn't track fully either.

 

[Maurice]

DS9Sega, for those of us who are both unfamiliar with the term and challenged sufficiently to be unable to use Google, could you spare a moment to tell us what "on twos" means?

I think it's slang for a pact that Bill Hanna and Joe Barbera made with Satan in return for earthly success.

Funny, Dennis.

Anyway, in short, where cel animation is concerned, most TV animation is "limited" animation (only the bits that need to move ever move), while most classic theatrical shorts and features are "full" animation (much fuller motion, not just mouths and heads moving, etc.).

Sound film runs at 24 fps (frames per second), but most full animation only has 12 drawings per second. So, for each drawing, you shoot two frames, aka "shot on twos". When actions are very fast the animation sometimes ramps up so that there are 24 drawing per second, which is shooting "on ones".

Finally, not all full animation is shot on twos. Richard Williams (animation director for Who Framed Roger Rabbit) prefers to shoot on ones, which is more work, but looks better. In fact, the animation in Roger Rabbit is all on ones because it looks weird to have animation on twos mixed with live action, which by its very nature is shot on ones.

As to TMP, AFAIK all the original sparkle and energy effects are shot on ones, so the decision on the DE to animate the points of light that form the walkway on twos is both idiotic and inconsistent with the look of the film.

 

[Procutus]

Well, if they ever decided to re-re-fix TMP I'd hope they keep the DE edit structurally (flawed as it is), and when they re-replace the VFX they hopefully actually do what the original intent was instead of adding all the fankwank crap they stuck into the DE

Thanks DS for your last post, which explained the tech behind that particular scene a bit better. I think I can see your point on that.

In regard to the quote above, what would be some of the changes you'd like to see if they ever do re-re-fix the film (beyond the re-mastered BD version). One thing that I can't quite figure is why the Vulcan sky wasn't presented in the 1979 theatrical as it was shown in the DE. From what I've read (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this) but the intent behind the revised and additional FX for the DE was to re-create scenes that were actually story-boarded and planned for the 1979 release, but could not be done due to time constraints. In other words, they would not create anything digitally that could not have been put on film using the effects technology of 1979.

So that being the case, why couldn't they have inserted a simple matte painting of the Vulcan statues at Gol instead of the matte showing T'Khut hanging in the Vulcan sky?



That said, I still had a wonderful, nostalgic feeling watching the theatrical on BD, taking me back to December 23, 1979 when I saw it for the very first time.

 

[David cgc]

One thing that I can't quite figure is why the Vulcan sky wasn't presented in the 1979 theatrical as it was shown in the DE. From what I've read (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this) but the intent behind the revised and additional FX for the DE was to re-create scenes that were actually story-boarded and planned for the 1979 release, but could not be done due to time constraints. In other words, they would not create anything digitally that could not have been put on film using the effects technology of 1979.

So that being the case, why couldn't they have inserted a simple matte painting of the Vulcan statues at Gol instead of the matte showing T'Khut hanging in the Vulcan sky?

I believe there's even a behind-the-scenes photo of the matte artist working on a painting of a red-skied vulcan surface. Can't remember why using it fell through, though. It might just have not been finished in time. The film was being worked on down to the wire.

 

[Maurice]

Thanks DS for your last post, which explained the tech behind that particular scene a bit better. I think I can see your point on that.

My pleasure.

In regard to the quote above, what would be some of the changes you'd like to see if they ever do re-re-fix the film (beyond the re-mastered BD version). One thing that I can't quite figure is why the Vulcan sky wasn't presented in the 1979 theatrical as it was shown in the DE. From what I've read (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this) but the intent behind the revised and additional FX for the DE was to re-create scenes that were actually story-boarded and planned for the 1979 release, but could not be done due to time constraints. In other words, they would not create anything digitally that could not have been put on film using the effects technology of 1979.

Well, here's the short list:
1. On the matte paintings, don't replace actual actors with CGI replacements, as they did with Spock walking towards the Vulcan Masters and the leads stepping out onto the Enterprise hull for the wing-walk.
2. For San Francisco, go back to the original matte paintings (including the unused shot below) and clean those up instead of making a whole bunch of new shots that aren't consistent with the originals. Then, keep the interior of the airtram station as it was designed (it matches the exterior, below), and don't open up walls that weren't intended to be opened.

​

3. Get the darned Earth into all the drydock shots that don't feature it, but should. I suspect it was left out of shots for reasons of time pressure.
4. Reproduce the original intended effect for the asteroid explosion and wormhole collapse. I've read that it wasn't meant to be the fireball explosion that ended up in the DE.
5. If the Klingon ships were meant to be seen in the Spock spacewalk, add them in. They're in Bob McCall's concept paintings. I suspect they were left out because the Klingon ships were filmed at Apogee and the spacewalk was done over at Trumbull's place.
6. When V'ger arrives at Earth, find the most dramatic storyboads of that event and use those, not have it cruise in from the side of the frame as in the DE, which is undramatic as hell.
7. Keep the scale of the energy bolts consistent.
8. For the wing walk, make the walkways appear as intended, not shot on twos!

There ya go.

 

[Procutus]

^


Yeah, I can pretty much see your point on all of the above, especially in regard to the SF scenes - I had completely forgotten that the tram-station was in essence built into a hill. It truly is a shame that they didn't go that route on the DE and one wonders why when the CGIs would've have allowed them to render it in a believable manner.

For that matter, it makes you wonder how the team behind the DE could've gotten so far from the original intended shots, when they claimed that was their goal.

 

[Maurice]

^


Yeah, I can pretty much see your point on all of the above, especially in regard to the SF scenes - I had completely forgotten that the tram-station was in essence built into a hill. It truly is a shame that they didn't go that route on the DE and one wonders why when the CGIs would've have allowed them to render it in a believable manner.

For that matter, it makes you wonder how the team behind the DE could've gotten so far from the original intended shots, when they claimed that was their goal.

As to the Tram station shot I posted, I've been told it was not actually an unused shot, but a piece of conceptual art, which I could believe, but what appears to be a matte line around the shuttle and the overall quality of the painting makes me wonder.

 

[Procutus]

but what appear to be a matte line around the shuttle and the overall quality of the painting makes me wonder.

There does indeed seem to be a matte line around the shuttle. It really is a shame that they didn't pursue this image for the DE.

 

[SMC]

The theatrical edition is by far the "tightest" most coherent and most complete version of the film.

The so-called "Director's Edition" is nothing more than a hatchet job that solves very few problems present in the theatrical version and mostly adds a ton of problems of its own. Edits made to "solve" pacing issues in the film were abrupt and jarring, not least because nobody bothered to take into consideration the fact that the soundtrack is simply cut as well - you can just hear something's missing. Amateur hour all the way there.

The new effects shots added to the film were mostly unnecessary and could have been more easily and more cheaply accomplished, and with a vastly better result, by taking still photographs of the Enterprise studio model and comping them into digital matte paintings, putting a slight move on them, and leaving it at that - rather than wasting what little budget they had on second rate CGI models rendered and composited into something with the clarity of mud. It certainly would have been the way to go for the Wing Walk shots which to my mind are probably the only truly awful shots in the theatrical version that needed replacing.

Problematic matte paintings such as Vulcan or Starfleet headquarters should simply have been cleaned, retouched and enhanced rather than replaced with a crude mixture of video game level CGI and still photographs like was done for the DE. Seeing the film on blu ray (and they seemed to have sourced it from a vastly cleaner print than was used for the DE) shows that there's really not that much wrong with the film that more judicious and considered updates couldn't have fixed.

Then there are the additional character scenes such as Spock's tears, which while interesting, are completely redundant and merely repeat things we've already learned in the film. Certain deletions of lines of dialogue are even more mystifying such as Kirk's having to repeat his "viewer off!" command to snap Uhura out of her shock and dismay at what she (and everyone else) has just witnessed. The film is robbed of much of its power by excisions such as that.

Then there's the print that was sourced for the DE project. Where did they find that, wedged into the grille of a semi that was just driven through a sandstorm? Exceptionaly dirty and damaged - I really don't get why they chose that print when it seems they found a vastly superior one to use for the blu ray release.... Its not pristine by any means but most of that thick layer of grime that mars the DE is nowhere to be seen and colours are vastly more stable and deeply saturated.

All in all, the theatrical cut on blu ray is about as good a presentation of the best version of ST:TMP that we're likely to have for the forseeable future.

 

[Procutus]

Then there's the print that was sourced for the DE project. Where did they find that, wedged into the grille of a semi that was just driven through a sandstorm? Exceptionaly dirty and damaged - I really don't get why they chose that print when it seems they found a vastly superior one to use for the blu ray release.... Its not pristine by any means but most of that thick layer of grime that mars the DE is nowhere to be seen and colours are vastly more stable and deeply saturated.

All in all, the theatrical cut on blu ray is about as good a presentation of the best version of ST:TMP that we're likely to have for the forseeable future.

Having just watched the BD, then for comparison, I threw in the DE to watch the beginning sequences (Klingons, Vulcan, SF HQ) and have to agree with you on that assessment. The print that was used for the DE has far more grain and color diffusion - it's almost like watching two different films.

Not having seen the theatrical cut for quite some time, I had forgotten some of the subtle nuances that separated it from later cuts, most of them mentioned by you in your post. For the time being, the Blu-Ray is the best bet for viewing this epic version of Roddenberry's vision of the future.

 

[Harvey]

Better pacing in the theatrical version? Hardly. The editing is so unfinished that the final film is a disaster.

The Director's Edition has all kinds of technical problems that have been noted here, but at least it doesn't have long insert shots that are obvious placeholders for incomplete visual effects (Such as the long shot of the federation seal, or display panel between the helm and navigator seats).

 

[JDF]

For the moment, they just want us to double-dip.

No, they're not ready to make the investment, and CBS will wait until there is sufficient demand to take the financial risk.

Just to clarify a point, CBS has nothing to do with the theatrical Star Trek releases. That is strictly Paramount. That's why the movies on BD was so varied in image quality. Some were older transfers when heavy handed digital video noise reduction was the norm, while others were more recently done and much less waxy looking and more film-like (such as TWoK). TMP fell in-between.

If CBS had been involved, I think a bit more care would have taken place for the whole lot. As it is, we are stuck with Paramount's less than enthusiastic treatment of the Trek movie franchise. They just kind of do the minimum that it takes. Although, they do seem to be getting better with their more recent releases in general.

 

[Expo67]

The Director's Edition of Star Trek - The Motion Picture is certainly the version that was meant to be seen, and the one that the late Robert Wise envisioned. Despite a couple of changes that I didn't think was necessary(trimming a little of the first recreation center scene, the elimination of the computer voice, and the changing of the red alert klaxon), and the removal of some scenes that were in the Special Longer Edition from 1983, I think the 2001 DE release is a better cut of the 1979 cinematic experience.