"The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!
- Thread starter DataLoreSpock
- Start date
I have to agree with Tiberius...bad writing of the episode...because Data is not known to be as evasive as he was. The only other episode that he was kind of evasive was in another episode where he was asked to lie by Picard himself!! This episode was Clues where they met up with the Paxans. Correct me if I am off the trail a little bit!
... isn't that what you're doing with "Data had options"?
I see that Data had a weapon capable of vaporising things. I conclude that he is capabl;e of vaporising the weapon that Fajo had thrown away after killing Varia. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
I conclude that Data could force Fajo into the escape pod. If nothing else, he can shoot the floor right next to Fajo to make him move. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
I conclude that Data could make sure that Fajo stays in the escape pod. We have seen that destroying a control console prevents someone from using the equipment that the console controls, so Data can destroy the console to prevent Fajo from opening the door. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
If this was not possible, then Data could block the entrance with things too heavy for Fajo and his crew to move. We've seen many times that Data is extremely strong. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
I am concluding things based on evidence we have seen for ourselves.
There is evidence we have to tell us how Data will react when he experiences new emotions. We do not see anything to tell us that this occurs after TMT.
I conclude that Data could force Fajo into the escape pod. If nothing else, he can shoot the floor right next to Fajo to make him move. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
I conclude that Data could make sure that Fajo stays in the escape pod. We have seen that destroying a control console prevents someone from using the equipment that the console controls, so Data can destroy the console to prevent Fajo from opening the door. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
If this was not possible, then Data could block the entrance with things too heavy for Fajo and his crew to move. We've seen many times that Data is extremely strong. Is this an unwarranted assumption?
I am concluding things based on evidence we have seen for ourselves.
There is evidence we have to tell us how Data will react when he experiences new emotions. We do not see anything to tell us that this occurs after TMT.
Don't put human standards and morals on Data. As much as he wants to be human, he isn't. He is what he is. He simply calculated the best option under the circumstances.
When Worf plunged his bat'leth into Duras' chest after killing K'helar (I'm not about to look up proper Star Trek spellings of these, so if they're wrong - that's why), everyone in the audience let out with one loud cheer. When Data "may" have fired with the intent to kill (but didn't kill), he's considered wrong or immoral? Or amoral? Seriously? Worf killed for revenge and personal satisfaction and we're okay with it because it's true to his culture and his character. Data's freedom and the lives of others were potentially at stake. Plus there was the revenge factor.
Data is, for all intents and purposes, alone in the galaxy. He is his OWN culture, so he makes the rules to live by. Every decision he makes is carefully calculated based on assorted variables. If he fired with intent to kill, rest assured, the reasons he had were good for him. It doesn't matter if it's good for you or not - it was the right choice based on Data's way of life.
He also decided, based on what he knew about his human friends, that the best answer to give Riker when asked was a non-answer. He also probably assumed Riker would react as he did and let it drop.
Besides, taking a life to avenge others and save his own ass? That makes him one notch closer to being human.
When Worf plunged his bat'leth into Duras' chest after killing K'helar (I'm not about to look up proper Star Trek spellings of these, so if they're wrong - that's why), everyone in the audience let out with one loud cheer. When Data "may" have fired with the intent to kill (but didn't kill), he's considered wrong or immoral? Or amoral? Seriously? Worf killed for revenge and personal satisfaction and we're okay with it because it's true to his culture and his character. Data's freedom and the lives of others were potentially at stake. Plus there was the revenge factor.
Data is, for all intents and purposes, alone in the galaxy. He is his OWN culture, so he makes the rules to live by. Every decision he makes is carefully calculated based on assorted variables. If he fired with intent to kill, rest assured, the reasons he had were good for him. It doesn't matter if it's good for you or not - it was the right choice based on Data's way of life.
He also decided, based on what he knew about his human friends, that the best answer to give Riker when asked was a non-answer. He also probably assumed Riker would react as he did and let it drop.
Besides, taking a life to avenge others and save his own ass? That makes him one notch closer to being human.
I didn't, but I can't speak for the rest of you blood-thirsty savages.
I didn't, but I can't speak for the rest of you blood-thirsty savages.
Blood thirsty savage right here!
There's just something satisfying about a morally contemptible character getting their comeuppance.
I so agree with that....it was good that Fajo was busted for what he did. Because he murdered in cold blood with no remorse whatsoever and was prepared to do it again.
In Theory said:
So I think I can safely assume that Data went through every possible scenario and still figured the best course of action was to shoot Fajo...
From an in universe point of view, perhaps. However, I feel that the option I have presented would work, and since Data didn't choose to do it, there must have been some problem with it. I can't see what that problem is, and no one in this thread has been able to explain it.
Of course, from a real world stand point, the answer is simple - it was just bad writing.
Kind of scared to read an opinion like that in a Trek forum ... I'd expect Trekkies to be against capital punishment, I guess.
It's not bad writing. It's consistent with the character that we'd known up to that point. Just because the writers' went in a direction you personally don't approve of doesn't make it 'bad writing'.
The scenario I see in The Most Toys is far more believable than the scenario you continue to promote here. Data may not be human. But guess what? The person writing all his ethical subroutines was. It was the same person writing Lore's ethical subroutines.
I don't think fighting and killing to ensure your own freedom is the same as being pro-capital punishment. I've taken every view here as what people would do in Data's place. I'm against capital punishment except for the most heinous crimes that include children, but I'd have burned Fajo to the ground to ensure my own life and freedom in a heartbeat.
Totally agreed. Capital punishment and escaping a sadistic kidnapper are totally different things.
What?
How is it consistent?
We have a character up until this point who has had no emotions, no sign that he's ever had any, and has always been eager to explain things, perhaps in more detail than was absolutely necessary. And now, he decides that an EXECUTION is the only possible course of action, despite the fact that Fajo was unarmed, and then he refuses to say what was really happening?
In what universe is this consistent with the way Data had been written or portrayed up until that point?
Do you really want to do this?
In season one's Datalore, Data tosses his own 'brother' into a transporter beam that was focused on open space and had no problems doing it.
Then we'll look at this exchange from Skin of Evil, that you've consistently ignored...
Skin of Evil said:
Data isn't as morally "righteous" as you'd like to think he is.
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It seemed he could have been justified for using force in the situation, and probably wouldn't have been punished for it. It's possible though that there could have been a formal examining of the events if he would have said he fired. Maybe Data lied to wrap things up easier and avoid what he considered unnecessary questioning. We don't know that he would have lied if he would have actually killed Fajo.
It can be argued that Data's actions towards Lore and Armus *are* righteous. Since those entities were inherently dangerous, had no redeeming qualities, and were extremely hostile, Data's eradication of them is justifiable.
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