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The morality of Arena

This is the text:

HERB: Plain and simply, we were running out of scripts. Several writers hadn't delivered as promised, and suddenly, there were only two choices of action avail-able to us: either shut down the shooting company or somehow find another script. Gene Roddenberry was away and Gene Coon was busy rewriting other writers' scripts, but none of those would be ready in time. So Coon decided to take some direct action. He asked Bob if he could leave the studio a little earlier that Friday afternoon to go home, lock himself in a room, and not emerge until Monday morning with a new script. RJ was thrilled. "If you can do that, go home early every weekend." So just before 6:00 Friday, Coon drove his Toyota Land Cruiser off the lot and did not return until midmorning Monday—with a new script in hand. Now, I was thrilled. The script was quickly put into mimeo and copies were rushed to NBC for network approval and Kellam DeForest's office for factual research and legal approvals. But suddenly, the thrill was gone. Coon, an ardent reader of science fiction since he was a child, in his haste to create a story, had inadvertently based part of his script on a short story that had been written by Fredric Brown. Kellam's assistant Joan Pearce, who reviewed, analyzed, and wrote the research reports on all Star Trek scripts, recognized the story. She remembers that when she advised Coon of the problem, his reaction was a horrified "Oh my God!" Joan has absolutely no doubt he was unaware he had "lifted" the material. But Coon had transgressed, and there was no way we could shoot the script without buying a plagiarism lawsuit. Gene Coon and I met with Bernie Weitzman and Ed Perlstein and formulated a plan. Business Affairs would call Brown, tell him Star Trek would like to buy his story, and offer a fair price. Brown was thrilled to have one of his stories on Star Trek and accepted the deal. We never did tell him that the script had already been written.
The image shows up now.

I have a scan of the actual De Forest Research memo pointing out the issue.

But all of this misses the point: the Galactic Journey plays that it's 55 years in the past, and no fan in January 1967 would have known this about "Arena" the episode, so the commenter was "out of universe". :)
 
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One final "the way the SFU tells it..." note:

As noted in the Federation sourcebook for the Prime Directive RPG, one key political factor surrounding the founding of a colony at Cestus III was the Y102 Border Declaration.

Prior to this Border Declaration, the question of exactly where the outermost extent of Federation space was supposed to lie had yet to be formally established - except along certain stretches of territory, such as the Federation-Romulan Neutral Zone. In particular, things were less then clear as regards the demarcation line between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, or between the UFP and the Kzinti Hegemony.

So, the Federation Council unilaterally declared in Y102 that the borders of the UFP constituted a giant circle, extending 4,750 parsecs in radius from the centre of the Primary Member Zone (the district where Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and other founding planets are located). In essence, this extended the pre-existing arc of the Fed-Romulan border to 360 degrees. The Council vowed that the Federation would not seek to expand beyond this declared radius.

The problem was that, not only had the Klingons and Kzintis not been consulted beforehand, the arc covered by the Border Declaration covered areas occupied and/or claimed by those empires. (This was a particular point of contention for the Kzintis, who would later address this grievance by launching the Second Federation-Kzinti War.)

Or, at least, that was the problem at the time. Fast forward a few decades, to the point where the question of Cestus III was being debated. The problem in this instance was that Cestus III lay beyond the limits of the Y102 Border Declaration.

One political faction argued that, since there wasn't anyone in that direction (so far as they could tell), the limit was not relevant; it was better to settle the region before the Romulans did. Another faction said that the principle of the Declaration was important - and that, in any event, there were still plenty of unoccupied systems within Federation-claimed space left to colonize.

Of course, it turned out that there was another empire in that direction...

Fortunately, once things had settled down diplomatically, the Gorns proved happy to accept a border based on the Y102 Border Declaration.
 
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From Inside Star Trek:

000-00pl.jpg

I don't have the book itself, but I'd like to know the page numbers of this scan. Thanks!
 
Same page numbers in the paperback edition.

And if anyone was wondering, the photo is of Nimoy and Jill Ireland from "This Side of Paradise".
 
But all of this misses the point: the Galactic Journey plays that it's 55 years in the past, and no fan in January 1967 would have known this about "Arena" the episode, so the commenter was "out of universe". :)

Yup. Well, I don't have control of our fans. At least he tried. :)

It had also been a few months. It's just plausible that word had leaked out and someone in the know (like Gwyn) might have been tipped off. But you're right. It's unlikely.
 
Yup. Well, I don't have control of our fans. At least he tried. :)

It had also been a few months. It's just plausible that word had leaked out and someone in the know (like Gwyn) might have been tipped off. But you're right. It's unlikely.
Yeah, but I notice a tendency of fans (not your team) who won't play by the rules of the game and have to hang a lantern on that they know something that people in that world/era couldn't know. It's a nudge nudge wink wink.
 
Yeah, but I notice a tendency of fans (not your team) who won't play by the rules of the game and have to hang a lantern on that they know something that people in that world/era couldn't know. It's a nudge nudge wink wink.

We definitely get folks like that. We actually have a standing edict (not rigidly enforced, but I try, anyway) not to look up every last detail on things, like scripts and such, because we just didn't know as much back then.

That said, my dad was taping stuff off the air in the 60s (reel to reel). So if we're really journalists and superfans, we'd have a way of transcribing scripts accurately. And since we actually have a staff member working on Star Trek in 2022, by translation, we get to have one working on Star Trek in 1967. :)

But it's not Denny, and the Brown thing is a bit too inside baseball, even for us.

On the other hand, the dirty laundry with Harlan would be common knowledge to most of the fan community, especially in Southern California... :) And when Al Jackson comments, you can take it to the bank, because he was there (mostly fan recollections and stories inside the space program).
 
I enjoy seeing the shows through the eyes of a first time viewer during the original run. It really opens it up and adds a layer of fun that gets lost with 55 years or repeat viewings. As @Neopeius once stated, watching the show with period commercials in the act breaks adds something to the experience, both in time period and how the act outs land.

I only get frustrated when someone talks about the show in both past and present points of view in the same thread. That's why I prefer "era specific" threads for those types of "what ifs" and keep the other threads in the present. It also cuts out confusion by people who joined up and don't know the game.
 
I enjoy seeing the shows through the eyes of a first time viewer during the original run. It really opens it up and adds a layer of fun that gets lost with 55 years or repeat viewings. As @Neopeius once stated, watching the show with period commercials in the act breaks adds something to the experience, both in time period and how the act outs land.

I only get frustrated when someone talks about the show in both past and present points of view in the same thread. That's why I prefer "era specific" threads for those types of "what ifs" and keep the other threads in the present. It also cuts out confusion by people who joined up and don't know the game.

I don't think there's enough demand for an era-specific thread. I got blowback for my "Galactic Journey through pre-Trek" thread, and the "Fanzines in Situ" thread is narrowly focused.

It's probably safe to say that I'm the only oddball with a dual perspective. At least until y'all start joining us on Wednesdays :)
 
At first blush, it might appear that the Gorns overreacted a tad at our colony on Cestus III. After all, couldn't they have just talked to us instead of massacring us?

And then I thought about it from the Native American perspective. If they knew the future, really the only move to make when the first Europeans showed up was to kill every damned one of them and make sure none ever got home (which, incidentally, is what Kirk planned to do with the Gorn--not talk, but punish).

Something to ponder.

A lot of American Indians or Native Americans lived far from the places where the first European explorers arrived. So if they had any mystical ways of seeing the future they wouldn't have been able to do anything about it anyway.

And can you explain how a even a coastal group with canoes would be able to wipe out the crew of an exploring ship? Most explorers had a few cannons on htier ships, which frighten away attackers in canoes. And of course the explorers could pull up anchor and sail away in their small ship, smashing any canoes which got in thier way.

Oh wow, that would have defeated the purpose.

Of our crowd, I enjoyed this episode the most. The first half is brilliant, especially as a sequel to "Balance of Terror" (no agonizing about the decision this time--Kirk knows what to do...but does he?) and the second half is, well, not perfectly effective, but pretty good, and certainly memorable.

But this second time around, I really found myself sympathizing with the Gorns. Especially if you go with the idea that the Gorns and Romulans were neighbors (something that was part of the Star Fleet Battles universe), and the Romulans had already made incursions on Gorn space. Humans and Romulans probably are indistinguishable to the Gorns (though maybe not -- even the Horta could tell Spock for his pointy ears...) so as soon as Romula-types showed up, the response was obvious..

And again, if the Wampanoag knew what was coming, they might have slaughtered the Mayflower crew rather than help them. Without prior knowledge, that would seem ruthless. With prior knowledge, it seems prudent[/QUOTE].

...But this second time around, I really found myself sympathizing with the Gorns. Especially if you go with the idea that the Gorns and Romulans were neighbors (something that was part of the Star Fleet Battles universe), and the Romulans had already made incursions on Gorn space. Humans and Romulans probably are indistinguishable to the Gorns (though maybe not -- even the Horta could tell Spock for his pointy ears...) so as soon as Romula-types showed up, the response was obvious.

The Star Fleet Battles universe is not canon. There is very little canon evidence of where the Romulans and the Gorn live realtive to each other.

And I don't see any wisdom in trusting the various space maps seen in various productions. Thee is no official frame store for how data about the Star Trek universe arrives in our universe centuries earlier - and their probably never will be one. So it is making a big assumption to assume that any visual aspects of Star Trek are accurte - possilby only the data in the scripts is accurate.

Besides, even if the Gorn have been attacked by Romulans, Klingons, Kzinti, Cardassians, Orions, or all of them, they ought to be able to recognzie th sensor readers from the ships of their enemies and notice that Federation starships have different enrgy signiaturures than any of their enemies, and thus might possibly not be hostile.

And again, if the Wampanoag knew what was coming, they might have slaughtered the Mayflower crew rather than help them. Without prior knowledge, that would seem ruthless. With prior knowledge, it seems prudent.

So how would the Wampanoag capture the Mayflower? Remember that the Pilgrims were the cargo, not the crew, of the Mayflower. The Mayflower would have anchored, and some of the crew would have rowed boats to and from the shore to unload the Pilgrims and their goods. I imagine that by 1620 the Wampanoag would have heard stories about white men with their hand guns, and the cannon on sailing ships.

Possibly the Wampanoag woldn't have dared to row their canoes out to the Mayflower, depending on how far out it was anchored, and whether the Wampanoag went far out to sea to fish.

The best strategy would be for the Wampanoag to wait for a calm night and have hundreds of warriors row out to the Mayflower. But if it was a bright night, the watch might spotted the approaching uninvited canoes, raised the alarm, and the sailors may have fired cannons and/or pulled up the chchor to sail away. And of course if the Wampanoag's massacred the Pilgrims on shore first that show their hand, and the Mayflower would sail away, perhaps shooting a few cannonballs at any Wampanoag targets they saw. Actually the Pilgrims and crew, except for exploring groups, spent the winter of 1620-21 aboard the Mayflower.

Europeans were hardly new to the Wampanoags in 1620.

In 1614 English Captain Thomas Hunt visited the Patuxet tribe of the Wampanoag Confederation near Plymouth, Mass. and abductedat 20 persons including Tisquantum or Squanto. Hunt sold some of them as slaves in Spain,but Spanish friars freed someof them, and educated and tried to convert them. Squanto made his way to England somehow, and in 1619 squanto sailded from Newfoundland to New England with Thomas Dermer. Patuxet was abandoned, because the village had been wiped out by one of the terrible plagues of Old World diseases.

Squanto settled with other, surviving Wampanoags. In June 1620 Wampanoags attacked the returnng Dermer, The Mayflower arrived in Massachssetts on November 19,1620 and must have been often sighted by various Wampanoags.as it sailed along the coast and eventually anchored in Plymuth Bay over the winter. Samoset, who had been a prisoner in England, made contact with the Pilgrims on March 16. Squanto and Samoset played big roles in negotiating the treaty between the Piligrims and Massasoit on March 22, 1621.

I also note that the first eventually successful English colony in what would become the USA was Virginia, founded in 1608, and the first European settlment in the futire USA was St. Augustine, Floridia, in 1565. So 1620 would have been much too late to think about keeping Europeans ignorent of North America.

And I may wonder whether the majority of present day Wampanoags would wish that Europeans never come to North America and to be living the lifestyle their ancestors lived in AD 1600. And also, if many Wampanoags do wish that, whether it would be a sensible thing to wish for.

What always bothered me about the Metrons (and other iterations) is the way they dealt with the situation. They could have just as easily stopped the pursuit and helped the two species find a better way to deal with the problem. They complain about how violent these "lesser" species are, but then solve the problem through ... violence! I don't think those Metrons are as highly evolved as they think they are ...

Yes, the Metrons could have told the two ships that their battle was stopped. They could have ordered the two ships to return to their homes in peace and warned their governments against any attempts at continuing the conflict. They might have ordered the Federation and the Gorns to abandon all claims to Cestus III and all the star systems nearby, or else.
 
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A lot of American Indians or Native Americans lived far from the places where the first European explorers arrived. So if they had any mystical ways of seeing the future they wouldn't have been able to do anything about it anyway.

And can you explain how a even a coastal group with canoes would be able to wipe out the crew of an exploring ship? Most explorers had a few cannons on htier ships, which frighten away attackers in canoes. And of course the explorers could pull up anchor and sail away in their small ship, smashing any canoes which got in thier way.
Board it and kill the crew. You need to watch fewer movies with racist depictions of natives as easily spooked and frightened children.
 
A lot of American Indians or Native Americans lived far from the places where the first European explorers arrived. So if they had any mystical ways of seeing the future they wouldn't have been able to do anything about it anyway.

And can you explain how a even a coastal group with canoes would be able to wipe out the crew of an exploring ship? Most explorers had a few cannons on htier ships, which frighten away attackers in canoes. And of course the explorers could pull up anchor and sail away in their small ship, smashing any canoes which got in thier way.

The Pilgrims were already on their way out. They needed the Wampanoag, not the other way around.
 
One wonders if a few extra centuries might have enabled the Americans to pull a Meiji rather than face virtual extinction, though. I know I've seen what-ifs where the disease is less deadly (sometimes involving more active Vikings) or it is just as deadly, but it runs through the population before Europeans can take advantage of it.

. :)

I’m not sure japan is a good analogy. Don’t forget japan was already in the Iron Age. They had metal working before the Europeans arrival. The had firearms from earlier contact with the Europeans (and abandoned same in the Tokugawa era). And they had a small, contained homogeneous civilization under 1 rule.

The native Americans had only Stone Age technology. The land was diverse with multiple tribes, many warring with each other. They had not the skill to work metal so when Iron and gunpowder Age civilizations came by looking to leverage the local resources the interaction was inevitable , not to be stopped by one or two massacres of small outposts.

A few examples spring to mind:

1- the Māori ,also bereft of iron, traded all sorts of things for the iron and guns. They successfully fought the English (the early Māori wars) but were also ultimately overwhelmed

2- the Chinese were also an Iron Age civilization, but culturally they were inhibited from successful repulsion of the west … even when they had similar weapons.

3- the Comanche nation. A great case study for North America. An amazing example of societal evolution based on horses and weapons. They successfully played the western elements off each other ( Spanish off on the French , Mexicans off the Americans etc etc) and were the dominant force in the Great Plains for over 100 years. Pekka hamalainen book “the Comanche empire “ is an excellent read and quite interesting insight

sorry for the tangent. As it relates to arena, the gorn were a contemporaneous space faring civilization. Culturally they were so different from the federation that it was logical for Kirk to conclude, based on how the gorn wiped out the settlement , that it would be necessary to use similar levels of force against them.
 
it was logical for Kirk to conclude, based on how the gorn wiped out the settlement , that it would be necessary to use similar levels of force against them.

Logical? Dunno about that. Unsurprising, sure. Note that Spock several times tried to dissuade his captain (to the point of being chewed out on the bridge).

Thank you for your examples. You're right about the disparity. That said, I wonder if a successful meso-American resistance could have resulted in native autonomy. There are several published AU novels with that premise.
 
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