The Menagerie I and II...

[Timo]

Having a camera able to zoom in and stuff is all well and good, but for it to happen at just the right dramatic moments is what can be a distraction.

Not if the drama is there for an in-universe reason, though.

In "Court Martial", the flight recorder visuals would naturally be edited for greater dramatic impact by the prosecution, nothing wrong with that. In "The Menagerie", the Talosians would wish to do the same. But the raw feed from the "black boxes" of the ship would not automatically feature this dramatic editing - which is why our heroes specifically point out that what they are seeing is not normal flight recorder feed:

Kirk: "That's impossible. Mr Spock, no vessel makes record tapes in that detail, that perfect. What were we watching?"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Harvey]

Obviously they fixed the problem of flight recordings being undramatic by the time Star Trek III: The Search for Spock rolled around.

 

[Gary7]

The viewing that we see is transmitted directly from Talos IV. This isn't Federation monitoring technology. Remember the external shot of the Enterprise and the zoom into the bridge dome? There was mention that Starfleet never made records that detailed, as Timo pointed out. Heck, I don't even think they had external probes along for the ride recording the external views of the ship. So, the Talosians conjured up all this. They could have "seen" the ship coming and then made a recording of everything they observed through their telepathic abilities.

The 'joke' of saying the Keeper was controlling everything - really isn't. Here's why:

1. In the teaser of Pt 1, Spock tells the injured Pike: "I have no choice!" I think that is a pretty good admission that the Talosians were manipulating everything from the start.

I'm not so sure about that. The Talosians do have a range limit. Otherwise, they'd have pulled in Federation ships long before the Enterprise came along. Starfleet kept Talos IV quarantined so that they'd be out of range of the Talosian influence. I believe the Talosians had a means of long range communication with Spock, whereby they expressed their concern for Pike's condition and wanted to offer him a chance to "live again." This was a gesture of benevolence. Spock being so loyal to Pike decided he had to give him that chance. I know, it didn't seem logical... Pike refused! But Spock was under great pressure from the Talosians, probably thinking he had to take Pike there to give him the choice once he could see it was real. So Spock risks his whole career on something like this? It doesn't seem so logical. I think it was his human side coming through.

2. Somewhere the Keeper/Talosians managed to replace the real Mendez with the illusionary one that accompanies Kirk on the shuttle, then on the Enterprise - not mention make it possible for Scott to lock onto it and beam it aboard the Enterprise. They probably made a point of having the real Mendez watching the 'testimony' ALONE, with no witnesses.

In the Cage, the point is pretty well made that the Talosians power is well....POWERFUL...so any 'illogic' CAN be explained as being done by the Talosians - the ULTIMATE deus ex machina....

This is a real puzzlement. Because it doesn't seem plausible for the Talosian power of illusion to reach that far. If it did, then why not cast an illusion to Kirk and his crew that they were carrying out a normal mission, all the while heading to Talos IV and taking Pike along with them? Even to the point of beaming Pike down there, letting the ship go, all the while the crew having absolutely no clue of what just transpired.

I think the Mendez illusion is a big hole in the story... I don't think it added anything to it. From a plot device perspective, it was used so that the threat of Spock's court martial by Mendez was non-existent. He simply could have changed his mind. Who is to say that Spock wasn't under the influence of the Talosians?? There's that range issue again. Well, all in all it's a good story... not a perfect one, and we should forgive it for that. After all, most of these TOS scripts faced a stiff time constraint. They could only verify consistencies and rewrite them for a short while. Clearly things became even more slipshod in Season 3...

Now as far as Spock not being 'punished' is concerned - the transmission from the real Mendez at the end makes it pretty clear, that its because of Pike's place in the history of space exploration - by Kirk's times, there must be a pretty large chunk of Starfleet that owes Pike BIG time in various ways - especially perhaps, Mendez? Remember that Spock repeatedly said he never aspired to be Captain - even in the Mirror Universe! The ONLY way he ever accepted a Captaincy, was as a Captain of a cadet training ship. So not charging Spock can pretty well be tolerated as an act of 'kindness'

It's clear that Starfleet has great respect to Pike for what he accomplished and sacrificed. And since there's all this ambiguity around the Talosian influence, I think it's acceptable to forgive Spock because of it. And your point is well taken about Mendez. He dismisses the charges. This very well could have been done by the real Mendez, assuming he'd really come along for the ride.

 

[Captain Robert April]

In the end, we got something that's pretty rare in television. A two-part clip show made up of clips nobody had seen before.

 

[scotpens]

. . . So Spock risks his whole career on something like this? It doesn't seem so logical. I think it was his human side coming through.

Which Spock characteristically denied, of course.

KIRK: Mister Spock, when you're finished, please come back and see me. I want to talk to you. This regrettable tendency you've been showing lately towards flagrant emotionalism —

SPOCK: I see no reason to insult me, sir. I believe I've been completely logical about the whole affair.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It really sucks that the Talos IV footage was shot like a television show and not like they were being monitored. I know, I know, it was the pilot.

"The Menagerie" wasn't "the pilot", it was a two-part episode that incorporated as much as possible of the original pilot.

"The Cage" was the first pilot.

 

[Maurice]

It really sucks that the Talos IV footage was shot like a television show and not like they were being monitored. I know, I know, it was the pilot.

"The Menagerie" wasn't "the pilot", it was a two-part episode that incorporated as much as possible of the original pilot.

"The Cage" was the first pilot.

That's what he's saying, that what we see broadcast from Talos IV is the pilot: The Cage.

 

[Green Shirt]

It really sucks that the Talos IV footage was shot like a television show and not like they were being monitored. I know, I know, it was the pilot.

"The Menagerie" wasn't "the pilot", it was a two-part episode that incorporated as much as possible of the original pilot.

"The Cage" was the first pilot.

That's what he's saying, that what we see broadcast from Talos IV is the pilot: The Cage.

Canonically speaking, the title of the first pilot is Star Trek. That is all we see onscreen.

 

[Captain Robert April]

To get even more nitpicky, the title of the pilot when submitted to NBC WAS, in fact "The Menagerie". After the airing of the two-part version, the pilot's title was changed back its working title, "The Cage", to better differentiate it from the two-parter.

An easy fix, since, as stated above, the title was never shown on screen, but at the time, the title was "The Menagerie".

 

[garamet]

I understand there's a novel that explains away all the inconsistencies...

 

[Timo]

I think the Mendez illusion is a big hole in the story... I don't think it added anything to it.

Well, if it does prove that Talosian powers reach across lightyears, then it automatically makes General Order Seven obsolete. Nothing will be accomplished by quietly executing Spock and the other traitors who willingly exposed themselves to Talosian mind control and thus chose to help the Talosians take over the universe, because obviously the Talosians don't need any help for that!

If Mendez is an illusion, then either the Talosians are benevolent after all and deliberately choose not to take over the universe - or then they have already taken over the universe and there's absolutely nothing to be done about it.

Until that point, Starfleet would have done well to nuke the Enterprise out of existence, then blow up the ship that nuked the Enterprise to be doubly sure, and then re-impose the quarantine. Nothing our heroes saw or reported back could be trusted, and none of their testimonies would make any difference - the only appropriate response would be to kill them all ASAP and then cook up some cover story for their deaths so that nobody would ever inquire.

With the first Mendez an illusion, the testimonies would become irrelevant in another way, because Talosians could now be the ones dictating the real Mendez' "not guilty" verdict, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EnsignHarper]

I think the Mendez illusion is a big hole in the story... I don't think it added anything to it.

Well, if it does prove that Talosian powers reach across lightyears, then it automatically makes General Order Seven obsolete. Nothing will be accomplished by quietly executing Spock and the other traitors who willingly exposed themselves to Talosian mind control and thus chose to help the Talosians take over the universe, because obviously the Talosians don't need any help for that!

If Mendez is an illusion, then either the Talosians are benevolent after all and deliberately choose not to take over the universe - or then they have already taken over the universe and there's absolutely nothing to be done about it.

Until that point, Starfleet would have done well to nuke the Enterprise out of existence, then blow up the ship that nuked the Enterprise to be doubly sure, and then re-impose the quarantine. Nothing our heroes saw or reported back could be trusted, and none of their testimonies would make any difference - the only appropriate response would be to kill them all ASAP and then cook up some cover story for their deaths so that nobody would ever inquire.

With the first Mendez an illusion, the testimonies would become irrelevant in another way, because Talosians could now be the ones dictating the real Mendez' "not guilty" verdict, too.

Timo Saloniemi

The 'fake' Mendez is the entire key to the Menagerie envelope

"Mr Spock related to us your force of will, and it was thought the fiction of a court martial would keep you from too soon regaining control of your ship."

And as we know now, the did shoot a scene with McCoy and Scott, where they came real close to doing just that.

And DON'T over think all the conundrums involved - even in THE CAGE, it was shown the Talosians were beings with feelings - the look of regret on the Keeper's face when he/she is releasing the illusion of Vina's beauty is a wonderful touch - and a nice piece of subtle acting by the actress playing him/her. Not to mention the sharp rebuke by the Magistrate when Pike is complaining about all that happened to him and his crew, and asking why no apology -

"You have condemned the Talosian race to extinction - you were our last hope -is that not enough for you?" For which Pike has no answer..

Which is exactly why Spock insisted on everyone - including the real Mendez - seeing the WHOLE record. No extraneous meddling by the Talosians was needed. Spock was COUNTING on Mendez' humanity, and the idea that Mendez was a good STARFLEET officer, knowing that Starfleet was/is/will be a very different organization - more than the military juggernaut some people here and elsewhere would have it be - an organization based on seeking the TRUTH.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Well said.

 

[Elder Knight]

I understand there's a novel that explains away all the inconsistencies...

If I remember correctly, when James Blish adapted this episode for his series of short stories, he scuttled the current-plus-flashback structure and just told the Pike story.

 

[scotpens]

“You have condemned the Talosian race to extinction - you were our last hope -is that not enough for you?” For which Pike has no answer..

If you’ll recall, Pike responds with an offer of help — “Some form of trade, mutual cooperation?” To which the Keeper replies, “Your race would soon learn our power of illusion and destroy itself too.”

So the Talosians weren’t evil. They had empathy for another intelligent species, even one as primitive as humans. And Pike extended an offer of assistance, even after all the hell they’d put him through. There’s your basic Star Trek message in a nutshell, right there in the pilot episode.

 

[EnsignHarper]

“You have condemned the Talosian race to extinction - you were our last hope -is that not enough for you?” For which Pike has no answer..

If you’ll recall, Pike responds with an offer of help — “Some form of trade, mutual cooperation?” To which the Keeper replies, “Your race would soon learn our power of illusion and destroy itself too.”

So the Talosians weren’t evil. They had empathy for another intelligent species, even one as primitive as humans. And Pike extended an offer of assistance, even after all the hell they’d put him through. There’s your basic Star Trek message in a nutshell, right there in the pilot episode.

Exactly, and that is why the Talosians went to such great lengths to help Pike in his time of need. And once Mendez saw this, he was all too happy to write the whole thing off as a mission of mercy for an esteemed member of Federation history.

I still think, as good as The Cage was by itself, The Menagerie is far superior as far the SERIES is concerned - those last 6 to 8 minutes after the viewer goes off are as good as any Trek done at any time - there are a hundred little subtleties there that are acted PERFECTLY by Shatner and Nimoy - Spock sudden regaining - no - Spock suddenly acting like Spock would act for the rest of all time. EXCEPT, when rolling Pike out of the courtroom, a swift, subtle show of emotion by hanging his head just as the doors are closing behind him And Shatner showing just how subtle HE can be when he wants at the end, the look of joy.....amazement..even envy, perhaps 'watching' the suddenly young healthy Pike with his young healthy Vina, as the Keeper asks him the ultimate question. That question having a hundred times more meaning than they in The Cage. Still can give me chills, even after 40 years of watching it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

PIPER: Welcome to Starbase Eleven, Captain. The Commodore's waiting to see you. He's curious why you suddenly changed course and came here.

Oh, I'm sorry...this isn't a line-by-line thread?

Carry on, then.

 

[garamet]

I understand there's a novel that explains away all the inconsistencies...

If I remember correctly, when James Blish adapted this episode for his series of short stories, he scuttled the current-plus-flashback structure and just told the Pike story.

Blish's novelizations were working from the original scripts, so they were a bit sparse.

I had something else in mind.

 

[Elder Knight]

I understand there's a novel that explains away all the inconsistencies...

If I remember correctly, when James Blish adapted this episode for his series of short stories, he scuttled the current-plus-flashback structure and just told the Pike story.

Blish's novelizations were working from the original scripts, so they were a bit sparse.

I had something else in mind.

True, but I think that he explained in his foreword that he wasn't comfortable with switching back and forth in time here.

 

[Mr_Homn]

""You know why I have come... I know it is treachery and it is mutiny, but I must do this." - Spock to Pike in Pt. 1

I find this scene to be a bit chilling. Spock says "you know why I have come".... Does this perhaps suggest that the Talosians have been in contact with Pike through telepathy for a while now? We would never know because Pike can only answer yes or no, and nobody would ever ask him this. Is pike tormented nightly by the visions of the talosians? Do they invade the privacy of his sleep, night after night, beckoning him to come save their species and to salvage his very sanity? I envision a very tortured Pike when Spock comes to see him. Someone who deep down inside is desperate for some sort of outlet, some sort of companionship, but too prideful to admit he was wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Talosians are the ones who manipulated events in order to bring on Pike's horrendous injuries in the first place.