THE LAST SHIP Season 2 - discussion, spoilers and general mayhem

[Gaith]

They'd have a lot more options with another ship for cover and firepower. Yes, also means more fuel needs and splitting supplies, but if the support ship is a little more minimal and still uses Nathan James as the supply location, it should have worked.

Do you have any actual Navy knowledge, or are you just guessing? Because I very highly doubt that you could halve or even significantly reduce a destroyer's crew and still be in fighting shape, to say nothing of the maintenance and supply requirements on any of the other ships. (Comparing this to Trek, where the ships should very probably be able to run themselves, is not helpful.) I did kind of expect the Nathan James to pick up a few random crew members in addition to the SEALS and their counterparts, but maybe that did happen, offscreen.

 

[Scout101]

Sitting on a Navy base at the moment, if that helps? Will grant that my knowledge is more geared towards subs, but I've had some experience working with the DDG class. (but have never served, if that's what you're asking) Actively ruled out them borrowing a sub, as figured that wouldn't be in their skillset based on what's available. Would be super-useful as part of the armada if they could have pulled it off, though.

I was hand-waving a little, but hard to answer better without knowing the complement of people available at Norfolk, no? Are there 10 extras, or hundreds? Can't have all died, and no way to know from what they showed. They managed to find enough flight crews to safely (?) fly all those planes, so who knows? There are a LOT of Navy folks (and ex-Navy contractors/support folks) in the area, so odds aren't terrible that they could pick up some help. Are the extras submariners, surface navy, what's the background?

And I'd agree that you can't halve a DDG's crew and remain in 100% top fighting shape. Could you take 20%, somewhat selectively, mesh them together with 50 guys you picked up on shore, and make a go at a second (smaller) ship, though? I'd think they could, or at least give it a shot. Like I said, go lighter on the support craft unless you have a specific mission or going into a fight, and then maybe transfer over some more help.

Or, as was hinted at as the plan aboard the hospital ship until things went south, could skeleton crew the second ship until you got into a questionable area, and then decide whether to crew up for 2 fighting ships or dump the second ship somewhere nearby and go back to full force on the Nathan James. I mean, if they seemed to think they could do it later in the same episode, they could probably have done it with a second Navy ship at the beginning of the episode, especially when they could plan for it and try to draft a few extra hands.

If the current crew complement is around 300 (standard for DDG), how many could they spare and stay in the fight? I'm not positive of the minimum for operation. FFG is about 200, suspect the minimum is a higher percentage than on the newer ships. Dunno how many they could have drawn from in port, we've only seen the spec ops folks they've grabbed, more fun than seeing another random deckhand. Maybe not enough to swing it...

Hell, I'd have at least settled for the XO lamenting that they couldn't stretch things enough to pick up a second ship, work that into the joke about him wanting his own command.

Maybe I'm setting my sights for ships too high based on the one I saw in dock during the episode? Surely they could spare enough crew to handle a LCS if they had one nearby? Complement of 40, and handy in coastal waters, which is where they're going to be a lot. Looks to be mainly out of San Diego, though, so maybe put a pin in that idea until later. Something along the lines of a Coast Guard cutter/patrol boat would also provide some useful support and play the role I had in mind without massive crew requirements. Bunch of useful Sentinel-class cutters out of Miami/Key West, crew complement of about 22. Nathan James could definitely spare that many (or borrow some extras) to crew up one or two of those without sacrificing her effectiveness. Or if they want to set their sights higher again, the Coast Guard Legend-Class is literally defined as a Destroyer Escort. Complement of 115-ish, so maybe with 60 or so off of the Nathan James plus a little help crewing up in Norfolk, they could have swung that. More guns, more tender craft, all the benefits of a support ship. And a few to choose from between Norfolk and Florida. Given the small crew requirements, Sentinel-class seems like a nice choice, though, and they're headed right by their home port...

 

[sojourner]

Would have been awesome if they'd found a Zumwalt class.

 

[Star Wolf]

With a fight against a submarine coming they are going to dream about having an extra ship. Now how does the death cult of the chosen immune find a crew for a nuclear submarine?

 

[FPAlpha]

Doesn't work like that, we are not talking about a truck here.

A warship (or any kind of vehicle that size) needs a good sized crew to maintain and service it, much less use its potential.

If Nathan James let go even a third of its experienced crew to supplement a second crew it would diminish the potential of the Nathan James and if there are no fully trained sailors available at Norforlk the second ship would also not operate efficiently putting both ships at risk due to inexperienced and overworked crews.

As i theorized i guess they need at least a year or two until the cure has been dealt with safely before thinking about rebuilding the Navy from the ground up. I guess it needs at least 6 months to a year to get a simple sailor up to speed, probably at least that for system specialists to familiiarize themselves with the tech.

This can happen only gradually as experienced crew from the Nathan James take it upon themselves to become instructors and then leaders too so it needs time (and preferrably a stress free environment).

 

[Scout101]

In the example I used, they can surely spare 20 out of 300 to crew the coast guard cutter which would provide nice support. That's without finding any new help. They can get by with 280 just fine, and the extra ship gives them support, can do scouting and suppy runs, and generally is a greater show of force. Extra tenders, another place to launch a helicopter, just so many benefits for a small cost.

Would have been handy that time the engines died. Or a few other time, just keeps all of their eggs out of the one basket

 

[Scout101]

Would have been awesome if they'd found a Zumwalt class.

Know right where to look, as it's not quite done yet. Even then, may not be enough benefit compared against their proven and familiar ship. DDG151 implies the Nathan James is pretty new and top of the line anyway.

That's definitely a future problem to work on, but may be too much work by the time they're able t attempt it. Once they found and trained enough folks, another DDG is probably a better bet

 

[Admiral2]

As for splitting the crew, the best way to look at this is to consider Nathan James's class.

The idea behind the Arleigh Burke class's design involved more than just inherent stealth. The Navy wanted a missile destroyer armed with the Aegis Defense System with a crew of about three hundred, but one so automated that if battle damage or other adversity killed half the crew, the remainder could still operate the ship normally. Okay? That's the sales pitch.

Now here's Nathan James's reality: She started out this mission already undermanned by comparison to the original specs (a crew of about 200) and has faced adversity almost constantly for the past season and change. Crew members have been lost to the plague and combat, and on top of all this she's been handed the task of basically restarting the world. Halving this crew under those conditions could be a death sentence for those that remain aboard.

And you can't just put the others on a different ship, whether smaller or newer, and expect that ship to be immediately useful. Crews train to operate specific platforms, so just putting half the James's crew on a Zumwalt or an Oliver Hazard Perry just means you've sent them all back to school. They have to learn to do more with the ships than just maneuver them out of dock. What if all the people capable of teaching those lessons are all dead from the plague?

If you're still crazy enough to break up James's crew, then the only way it has a prayer of working is if the half is transferred to another Arleigh Burke...which just leaves you with two severely undermanned DDGs instead of just the one heavily undermanned-but-still-capable one.

I'm with FPAlpha on this point. You need to get the world back to a point where more people are being born than dying, reconstitute or rescue international governments, recreate a military infrastructure where new people can be trained for military jobs, and then and only then can you start putting more naval ships out to sea.

Nathan James will be "the only ship in the quadrant" for the foreseeable future.

 

[sojourner]

Wait, I don't remember the Nathan James starting out under manned when she was in the Arctic.

 

[Star Wolf]

Wait, I don't remember the Nathan James starting out under manned when she was in the Arctic.

Well she was carrying a research team along with SEALs for escorts and only one or two possible helicopters so there may have left some billets empty. I don't know how the US Navy is run but my army unit never went to the field at full MTOE strength,

Along the way she has lost crew members fighting Russians, al Qaedas and Maryland State Troopers

 

[sojourner]

Well, yeah, we know they've lost crew since, I just don't think they were that undermanned to start out.

 

[Scout101]

Still don't think they are THAT undermanned. They've lost a few, and maybe started down a couple, but no way they started at a crew of 200 as guessed above. Not if the normal compliment is a little over 300. Sure they've lost a few to plague, fights, couple that just stayed behind, but they can't be much lower than 250-260, can they?

Still think they could scrape together the 15-20 needed to fully man the Coast Guard cutter I mentioned, and it's right on their way. Advantages way outweigh the reduction in manpower. Bigger ships appear out of their reach for now, though

 

[Admiral2]

Well, yeah, we know they've lost crew since, I just don't think they were that undermanned to start out.

I'm comparing the complement of Nathan James (which I thought was mentioned as around two hundred) to the specs for the original Arleigh Burke design (which called for a crew of about three hundred). In this case the undermanning would be caused by budget cutbacks coupled with advances in technology. Nathan James has a smaller crew than much earlier ships in the class, but that's made possible by improvements to the systems installed. The same thing can be said for Nimitz class carriers in real life. They were originally designed for larger crews and larger air wings than they tend to set sail with nowadays.

But I'm sticking to what I said before. Even if we accept that Nathan James is fully crewed, dividing that crew just to have a second ship available - which would ultimately just leave you with two less efficient ships - is senseless.

Still think they could scrape together the 15-20 needed to fully man the Coast Guard cutter I mentioned, and it's right on their way. Advantages way outweigh the reduction in manpower. Bigger ships appear out of their reach for now, though

The cutter would be of little or no use against the modern nuclear attack sub Nathan James is about to square off against, which means you'd be dispatching a handful of crew to no useful purpose.

And which 15 or twenty people do you send? Every skilled person you turn out of Nathan James will have to be replaced, and sending people who just know how to get a ship moving will result in nothing but creating a new floating target. This is not Master and Commander, where Lucky Jack can send his Number One and a couple of guys over to Acheron because the thing works the exact same way as Surprise. Modern ship classes are significantly different from one another, and modern crews all specialize to certain degree.

 

[The Wormhole]

They've lost a few, and maybe started down a couple, but no way they started at a crew of 200 as guessed above

That's not actually a guess. It actually is stated many times throughout the first season the Nathan James has a crew of 200. The earliest reference I can think of off the top of my head was the fourth episode where Slattery is trying to convince Quincy to be cooperative by telling him about keel hauling and adding "I can think of about 200 sailors who'd love to try that out on you." By this point they'd only lost three crewmembers (the guy who got infected in the pilot and the two fired upon by the Russians at Guantanamo). So yeah, they did start off with a crew of about 200.

 

[Scout101]

Haven't seen the 1st season since it aired, don't remember that part. But ok. Certainly changes the math if they're short that many people. Although depends if you're going into it expecting 300 and having them shorthanded, or only have 200 because it's more automated and 200 is the norm. Either way, i'll accept that as the number if it was onscreen and I missed it.

Dunno that automation really accounts for that number, as even the newest DDG currently has a complement of 323, so I don't know how they could send them out that critically understaffed. Can't tell me that there's no way to operate a ship if you split the crew in half, and then also tell me she's doing just fine with 60% of her usual complement Certainly agree you can't afford any losses if that's the case, but doesn't work otherwise.

I guess you get a little hand-waving magic though, as newest active DDG is 112, and Nathan James is 151, so you're already a few years in the future and another generation or two of advancements in design. Maybe the DDG-1000 automation made it into the Arleigh Burke class by DDG151...

Don't know the answer, but wondering how effective a destroyer would be one on one vs. an attack sub anyway. Maybe she's lucky and was outfitted for anti-sub warfare package, but even then, seems like the sub would have a decent advantage. Especially if sonar is undermanned or inexperienced. Probably changes the math again if only a couple people on the sub have any experience, but I don't think they could even OPERATE the sub under those conditions, so it's already a silly premise.

In-universe, though, if they can cobble together a sub crew, Navy sailors could probably learn to drive a CG cutter. Agree it's useless against the sub, but they didn't know in advance they'd be fighting one. And same plan as before; if you run into issues, can send the other ship away, or just transfer crew back to DDG and abandon the cutter.

And again, all just a passing thought when they showed other ships at Norfolk, and then when they talked about adding the hospital ship to the fleet. Figured if they're thinking about it, what would be the smartest way to get the most bang for their buck. And a 20-crew (full complement, so could maybe run with a couple less) CG cutter would make a nice escort/scout ship.

All a moot point if the NJ was sent out criminally understaffed to begin with. But if 200 is closer to 'normal' staffing, they could probably spare a couple guys...

 

[Gaith]

The writers may have fudged the crew complement number down to 200 or so in order to justify all the recurring faces and shortage of extras during all-hands scenes. Given that we're looking at a Hollywood production, I'd say that only a character outright stating that the ship deployed significantly undermanned would be solid in-universe evidence of such a story element.

And I agree with Admiral2; even if they managed to get a smaller ship up and running, that'd mean bigger fuel requirements, the likely loss of key Nathan James specialists, the need to constantly defend (and worry over) a significantly weaker target, and a grave reduction in morale as friends and shipmates who've survived the apocalypse are suddenly separated, makes the whole idea a poor one, unless the Norfolk base was full of healthy Sailors ready to deploy, which certainly wasn't it evidence.

 

[Star Wolf]

The writers may have fudged the crew complement number down to 200 or so in order to justify all the recurring faces and shortage of extras during all-hands scenes. Given that we're looking at a Hollywood production, I'd say that only a character outright stating that the ship deployed significantly undermanned would be solid in-universe evidence of such a story element.

And I agree with Admiral2; even if they managed to get a smaller ship up and running, that'd mean bigger fuel requirements, the likely loss of key Nathan James specialists, the need to constantly defend (and worry over) a significantly weaker target, and a grave reduction in morale as friends and shipmates who've survived the apocalypse are suddenly separated, makes the whole idea a poor one, unless the Norfolk base was full of healthy Sailors ready to deploy, which certainly wasn't it evidence.

It is amazing ordinary seamen are not available but they had SEALs, and their equivalent from Australia and Israel coming out the ying yang

 

[FPAlpha]

It is still a TV show that has the captain of the ship leading boarding actions and expeditions into unknown territory on a regular basis

So while they try to make it as realistic as possible story and drama requirements still take precedence over realism and actual military procedure.

 

[The Wormhole]

It is still a TV show that has the captain of the ship leading boarding actions and expeditions into unknown territory on a regular basis

So while they try to make it as realistic as possible story and drama requirements still take precedence over realism and actual military procedure.

Actually, for the most part, Chandler is the only ranking officer who goes with the tactical teams. The others are usually people who specialize in ground assault or specialists from the crew needed for a particular job on that mission. The only exception was when they took on the drug cartel where they had the Captain, XO, and Master Chief all participating.

It's certainly different from the Star Trek approach of only sending ranking officers with the lower ranked officer or two to be expendable sacrifices.

 

[FPAlpha]

It is still a TV show that has the captain of the ship leading boarding actions and expeditions into unknown territory on a regular basis

So while they try to make it as realistic as possible story and drama requirements still take precedence over realism and actual military procedure.

Actually, for the most part, Chandler is the only ranking officer who goes with the tactical teams. The others are usually people who specialize in ground assault or specialists from the crew needed for a particular job on that mission. The only exception was when they took on the drug cartel where they had the Captain, XO, and Master Chief all participating.

It's certainly different from the Star Trek approach of only sending ranking officers with the lower ranked officer or two to be expendable sacrifices.

Compared to reality it's still against every military protocol to have the ranking officer of an area lead the boarding team (for obvious reasons.. there is no script writer to provide plot armor in reality).

That's why they have dedicated boarding teams lead by someone else but obviously, as i have said, reality has to give way to TV drama needs.