The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[Campe]

Before I talk about the "flow" of the film I want to say something: people have called me racist..

Ya know, this is the Star Wars forum. Not the FSM forum. I’m really getting tired of 90% of these threads turning into that. Not everything is about you. You’ve said your piece about it a dozen times. And many, myself included, have continuously taken the bait. I think it’s time we all let it go.

Can we all do that? Please?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

you didn't actually address my point.. but that's ok. You never did. it's ok. hope you enjoy the garbage fire of an ending they filmed

You still don't seem to understand your own point. You just endlessly keep repeating that 'a good story is a good story' and 'good storytelling makes a character good, not gender', yet you seem fundamentally incapable of understanding that NO ONE here has ever disagreed with that. If 'good storytelling is good storytelling', then whether the star is a man or a woman is NOT RELEVANT. Yes, even if you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the character was only made a woman because of a focus group or an agenda, it would STILL not be relevant. So stop bringing it up as proof of 'bad storytelling' and argue the actual story if you must. That's the only thing that is actually relevant to whether the storytelling is good or bad.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Ya know, this is the Star Wars forum. Not the FSM forum. I’m really getting tired of 90% of these threads turning into that. Not everything is about you. You’ve said your piece about it a dozen times. And many, myself included, have continuously taken the bait. I think it’s time we all let it go.

Can we all do that? Please?

I'm a fan and I'm letting my opinion be known. And if you agreed with it you probably would not be mentioning it at all. Instead you post like you own this place as if you are the policeman or the substitute teacher we should all be afraid of. I am just posting my opinion as a fan

 

[Campe]

I'm a fan and I'm letting my opinion be known. And if you agreed with it you probably would not be mentioning it at all. Instead you post like you own this place as if you are the policeman or the substitute teacher we should all be afraid of. I am just posting my opinion as a fan

Post your opinions about Star Wars. I don’t care. I’m asking that we don’t get distracted and off topic any longer.

 

[BillJ]

It's only when they started forcing diversity...

I've asked before, what exactly is "forced diversity"? Is it just the vary notion of casting a minority in a role that you think should go to a white man? Because in the movies themselves, there's been no mention of the races of any of the characters.

 

[BillJ]

you didn't actually address my point.. but that's ok. You never did. it's ok.

The point is your racist and misogynistic. The proof is in the posting pudding.

hope you enjoy the garbage fire of an ending they filmed

I'll go and watch the movie and decide on its quality based on what it gives me. I won't be going on rants about forced diversity or that a woman runs the franchise.

 

[Qonundrum]

Watched The Last Jedi this afternoon. Honestly, I don't get the hate? I find it just a tick behind The Force Awakens in entertainment value. The weaknesses being the Canto Bight/Ships being chased part (that really needed to be reworked and not so heavy handed) and they really didn't seem to know what to do with Poe Dameron. I found the Luke/Rey/Kylo Ren stuff great.

And Luke Skywalker is still a bad-ass motherfucker.

Bring on The Rise of Skywalker!

The deleted scenes added enough to the story's narrative and plot that their deletion led to a lot of gaffes. The most obvious one being Rose's comment about saving what they love and the resultant heckling from the portion of the audience that was bemused the most over why she'd say such a thing, having barely known the guy. The deleted scenes added more to make her line have enough sense...

The Canto Bight scenes were a tad long and jarring at one point...

The Rey/Ren Force Teleportation of matter was a bit overdone, but was apparently done in a comic - as was Luke's Force projection...

...Skywalker's ploy was fantastic and the Ren standoff at the end was mindblowingly great. His self-sacrifice only cements him as a legend, which fits into his character arc of being impetuous - think of it as a loose and warped take on Daedalus and Icarus, with Luke as the latter.

Poe as the ignorant one out and not understanding chain of command was an interesting idea for a subplot but he could have been a bit less rough around the edges but I appreciate the ideas nonetheless. As far as CO's go, man or woman it makes no difference. He should have left it to Admiral Holdo and his meddling almost destroyed the Resistance. But that ad hoc decision by Holdo was jaw-droppingly great, the whole theater was awe-struck. Even CinemaSins knocked off a bunch of points because it's legitimately great. Boom.

Doesn't Finn get addressed as "rebel scum" by Shiny Happy Phasma? A great scene was tarnished by that, the ST features them as "Resistance". Or it's the most brazen, lamest in-joke "easter egg" ever put onto a script.

And Luke's milk needed to be blue. Not teal green. But this is 21st century film making, that ubiquitous palette is inevitable...

That aside, there's nothing majorly wrong with TLJ and feels far more innovative than The Force Awakens. DJ being a double agent could easily have been a modern take on Lando, especially if returning for TRoS, but Benicio (who's one of the best villain actors out there) isn't returning and that's a loss to the franchise. But they'll dig up Palpatine for no reason, unless he's an evil Force Ghost and not a mustache-twirling "I fell down a big chasm, just like Han but at least I didn't die but stayed back behind a curtain, moohahaha."

Oh, wait, there is a major problem - Snoke was smoked way too early. Is that why Palpitation is returning for no reason?! Should have made DJ be the baddie instead...

Oops. Spell-checker failure detected. I'm not fixing it, Palpy's inclusion is probably giving people justified palpitations anyway.

The funny part is, articles at the time of TLJ's showing say they had no continuity in mind, in ways that seem to upend the current narrative from the youtube grifters. Who started the sequel trilogy and why didn't they have an arc of any sort from the get-go? Just a bunch of hollow mystery boxes and Chewie not being hugged (which is the smallest and least consequential of TFA's problems by far...)

 

[Jinn]

Before I talk about the "flow" of the film

So, about that flow?

 

[jaime]

So, about that flow?

They ‘don know ‘bout my flow.

Selecta.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The film is a haphazard mess.

Usually, when a hero, like Ethan Hunt goes from point A to B, particularly when it is part of the climax and not just the early sections of the film where the exposition is done.. the film will show us the important steps of how he might get from here to there, or cut away to show a closeup (he actually has a gun). Certain details might be left out, but it's only effective when done by the hand of a master filmmkaer to create surprise or tension, but that director still has compensate by knowing that one scene has to connect to a scene a few beats later with the proper amount of connecting scenes. Yet people don't seem to mind that literally we do not see Rey after the hyerdrive maneuver. Last we saw her, her and Ren were playing tug of war. So she won, but we skip like 7 minutes (not seeing her making her way through a wrecked ship, avoiding guards, and finding a shuttle.. or even establishing --- BTW "establishing" things is the first job of a director - Snoke's shuttle even itf it's nearby. it's just oh here is Ray, and she is in great shape, saving everyone. ..we don't see any connected scenes to get us there.

But we all love this movie, don't we, we all love that Phasma had a whole bunch of guards inches away from the dynamic duo and then after the explosion she is entering the room as if for the first time.

We get to salt world and it's like we've started a whole new film.. felt like more of a beginning of the film then the actual beginning did. It is part of what I'm talking to about cadence.. how a film movies.. a good movie can be fast or slow.. just as long as it finds the right pace for itself, and the cadence of is reached when it just seems to progress evenly through it's story. This film jerks us from place to place, from moment to moment, from tone to tone.. sometimes goofy comedy and serious drama, in adjacent scenes or even the same scene. The casino interruptions, or the saber hitting Rey in the head, demonstrate that. It's as if Rian gets to bottom of every page he writes and gets bored, so he tried to put jolts in there evey minute instead of allowing the story, themes or characters to have dignity.. instead of allowing them to stand on their own.. and become part of a timeless story or a cohesive whole. Are we supposed to laugh or worry? When Finn and Rose are wondering if the fleet can escape but she had shocked him so he can actually barely talk, what is this clash of tones telling us?

 

[Campe]

Last we saw her, her and Ren were playing tug of war. So she won, but we skip like 7 minutes (not seeing her making her way through a wrecked ship, avoiding guards, and finding a shuttle.. or even establishing --- BTW "establishing" things is the first job of a director - Snoke's shuttle even itf it's nearby. it's just oh here is Ray, and she is in great shape, saving everyone. ..we don't see any connected scenes to get us there.

Didn't jar me in the slightest. Its not important that we see or know where Snoke's shuttle is. Its only necessary to know that she escaped before Ren woke up. And obviously, Ren was simply knocked out. He was able to fight what he thought was Luke not too long after Rey was shooting down TIEs (which is arguably, a far less physical exertion than what Ren was doing). Having said that, it does bother me that Rey does disappear for an extended bit there in the climax of her own film. I don't know that its necessary but it would be nice to have seen a scene with her rendezvous with the Falcon.

But we all love this movie, don't we, we all love that Phasma had a whole bunch of guards inches away from the dynamic duo and then after the explosion she is entering the room as if for the first time.

No, its not perfectly spelled out but personally I don't need everything spoonfed to me. I am okay with connecting the dots in my head. To that end, wouldn't you think if there was a collision at the speed of light, that things would be in chaos? That perhaps the ship was violently shaking, on fire, maybe even gravity was out in parts of the ship for a moment and our heroes and the bad guys were all sent to different parts of the hanger. (It is a big room after all.) I don't need that shown to me. I can figure it out by context clues.

We get to salt world and it's like we've started a whole new film.. felt like more of a beginning of the film then the actual beginning did. It is part of what I'm talking to about cadence.. how a film movies.. a good movie can be fast or slow.. just as long as it finds the right pace for itself, and the cadence of is reached when it just seems to progress evenly through it's story. This film jerks us from place to place, from moment to moment,

Some might call that a rollercoaster. And no, the pacing isn't perfect. I do agree that Canto Bight unnecessarily slows things down.

from tone to tone.. sometimes goofy comedy and serious drama, in adjacent scenes or even the same scene. The casino interruptions, or the saber hitting Rey in the head, demonstrate that. It's as if Rian gets to bottom of every page he writes and gets bored, so he tried to put jolts in there evey minute instead of allowing the story, themes or characters to have dignity.. instead of allowing them to stand on their own.. and become part of a timeless story or a cohesive whole. Are we supposed to laugh or worry? When Finn and Rose are wondering if the fleet can escape but she had shocked him so he can actually barely talk, what is this clash of tones telling us?

What is the clash of tones telling us? That life isn't exactly all serious or hilarious. Tone in life is not black and white so why does it need to be that way in film? You can have those mix of emotions. Dude, in the past three years, I have had a lot of emotional ups and downs from struggles with my wife getting pregnant to having a baby and trying to start a new career and finishing a master's degree. There were so many moments when I looked at something and was laughing because if I didn't, I was going to break down crying. It is so easy to be stressed out one second and laughing on the floor the next. Because that's how life is. I, for one, don't have a problem with the tone of TLJ.

But that's just me.

 

[fireproof78]

What is the clash of tones telling us? That life isn't exactly all serious or hilarious. Tone in life is not black and white so why does it need to be that way in film? You can have those mix of emotions.

Exactly. That is the very nature of the human condition. There are whole therapy models built on such a concept.

TLJ flows very well, from beat to beat, noting that there is chaos, and this is what the characters are experiencing. And, it is no less jarring than ROTJ going from Tatooine, to Dagobah, to the Rebellion. Sorry, that is a messed up flow.

 

[Campe]

Exactly. That is the very nature of the human condition. There are whole therapy models built on such a concept.

TLJ flows very well, from beat to beat, noting that there is chaos, and this is what the characters are experiencing. And, it is no less jarring than ROTJ going from Tatooine, to Dagobah, to the Rebellion. Sorry, that is a messed up flow.

I never liked Jabba's Palace. Recently I realized I'd like ROTJ a whole lot more if it started off with Han already out of carbon freeze and joining the movie and our heroes mid-fight, either getting away from Jabba or just a completely different adventure. I feel like they waste too much of the film there. But, once Vader and Luke meet on Endor, that's some good stuff. I'm even coming to peace with the murder bears... er, Ewoks.

 

[XCV330]

It hasn't broken any rules that were actually in the text. It only conflicts with small-minded people who were annoyed their own personal pet theories weren't borne out.

I don't like how tribal fandom gets. Here is an example. Don't like Abrams SW? You're small minded with personal pet theories. Maybe some people just didn't like the movie and are willing to say so inside someone else's echo chamber.

And yes, I get that many of the anti sequel trilogy have a very slimy ax to grind, but that isn't everyone. Ah fuck it. I'm sick of SW fans. My last reply on these sw threads.

 

[The Doctor]

I never liked Jabba's Palace. Recently I realized I'd like ROTJ a whole lot more if it started off with Han already out of carbon freeze and joining the movie and our heroes mid-fight, either getting away from Jabba or just a completely different adventure. I feel like they waste too much of the film there. But, once Vader and Luke meet on Endor, that's some good stuff. I'm even coming to peace with the murder bears... er, Ewoks.

Jabba's palace is critical because it shows us how much Luke has grown in power since his humbling defeat in ESB. Also, my inner 10-year-old will never tire of the sail barge battle or the spectacular reveal of the green 'hero' saber, which was my favourite OT saber for a long long time.

 

[jaime]

I never liked Jabba's Palace. Recently I realized I'd like ROTJ a whole lot more if it started off with Han already out of carbon freeze and joining the movie and our heroes mid-fight, either getting away from Jabba or just a completely different adventure. I feel like they waste too much of the film there. But, once Vader and Luke meet on Endor, that's some good stuff. I'm even coming to peace with the murder bears... er, Ewoks.

Oddly, I love the opening of Jedi, it’s my favourite stuff in there. It slows when Luke goes to dagobah, but I understand why that is there...and then, I wonder if it slows down on endor too much, the Ewok village...but then I remember things like the speeder bike chase, and Luke’s convo with Leia, and then I have to give Lucas credit for the pacing in that film, and the choices made.

 

[BillJ]

I never liked Jabba's Palace. Recently I realized I'd like ROTJ a whole lot more if it started off with Han already out of carbon freeze and joining the movie and our heroes mid-fight, either getting away from Jabba or just a completely different adventure. I feel like they waste too much of the film there. But, once Vader and Luke meet on Endor, that's some good stuff. I'm even coming to peace with the murder bears... er, Ewoks.

I’ve found that Return of the Jedi simply isn’t a very good movie.

 

[Campe]

Oddly, I love the opening of Jedi, it’s my favourite stuff in there. It slows when Luke goes to dagobah, but I understand why that is there...and then, I wonder if it slows down on endor too much, the Ewok village...but then I remember things like the speeder bike chase, and Luke’s convo with Leia, and then I have to give Lucas credit for the pacing in that film, and the choices made.

I just think about the openings of the other original films. ANH you literally start with a bang. ESB you know that the Rebels are in danger before they do. ROTJ you have Vader doing a site inspection and Artoo and Threepio goin' clubbin. :P

Yes, I am minimizing the opening of Jedi a bit with that statement, but at the beginning of the movie, the stakes don't feel AS high as they should be.

But to @The Baby Yoda 's point, yes. Once you get to the sail barge, the sequence picks up. But I just feel like the pace is so slow before that. I mean, even if the movie literally joined as Luke came to the palace and everything else was already in motion, I think it would have worked better.

 

[Spot261]

I’ve found that Return of the Jedi simply isn’t a very good movie.

Say twenty Hail Leias and make a donation.

 

[Spot261]

I'm a fan and I'm letting my opinion be known. And if you agreed with it you probably would not be mentioning it at all. Instead you post like you own this place as if you are the policeman or the substitute teacher we should all be afraid of. I am just posting my opinion as a fan

I think he's suggesting your opinion is being given disproportionate attention, at the expense of pretty much anyone else's.

Or anything else.