The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[ScottJ85]

you might just have an even worse grasp of military basics than Rian Johnson

I really, honestly, genuinely could not possibly give less of a fuck how things work in real world military forces.

Did your job directly contribute to combat effectiveness? Was your place of retail employment part of a war-fighting vessel or military base?

And that was the sound of his point flying clear over your head.

Edit so as not to double-post:

Let's see, in previous Star Wars films we had a galactic government accepting a mysterious benefactor's gift of unlimited disposable troops, sword wielding mystics rescuing a head of state, a bumbling fool promoted to general and winning a battle entirely by accident, a five year old jumping into the cockpit of a fighter and taking out a massive battleship, a farm boy being trusted with one of the good guys' precious few fighters to take on a planet-killing superweapon and using literal magic to make the lucky shot with zero combat experience, an entire fleet dedicated to hunting down one light freighter, a leader enthusiastically carrying out field executions and field promotions to fill the positions left vacant by those executions, stone age spear-wielding teddy bears, and suddenly now that we're up to the eighth entry in the series, now real world military basics suddenly matter?

Come on. It's a Star Wars movie, not a documentary on the North Africa campaign.

 

[Gaith]

I really, honestly, genuinely could not possibly give less of a fuck how things work in real world military forces.

That hasn't stopped you from spouting off about basic military concepts so far:

Choosing not to communicate the plan with a subordinate who has proven to be untrustworthy is a perfectly valid decision. Everyone who actually had a need to know, knew.​

Why would she tell Poe, who just got their entire bombing squadron killed for no reason, anything at all? They're a military organisation, she gives the orders, he shuts up and follows them.​

So, which is it? Either the basics of military structures apply to TLJ, in which case Rose is obviously a uniformed combatant, or they don't, in which case your arguments about Holdo being in the right on account of military discipline are meaningless. Also, if they do apply, please explain why the First Order cannon first targeted the stationary, defenseless base instead of the fleeing ships.

(And you can skip the PT references, because I consider those movies unsalvageable garbage as well. )

I'll not continue with this attitude. Sorry that the term soldier is a hang up. I was referring to her role in the story not her specific role in the Resistance. There was no need to be mocking or rude.

I didn't intend to hurt your feelings, but I consider at least a vague familiarity with the bare-bones basics of militaries (as in, who is or is not a combatant, and that many soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines are technicians) to be nearly as essential to being a learned adult as, say, being able to explain the concept of judicial review. I certainly find it galling that one can earn a graduate degree and not know that many armed forces service members are technicians; it's a sad commentary on the dangerous and indeed very harmful segregation of military families and communities from society at large. If you take offense at my pointing out the extent of your ignorance, while nonetheless presenting yourself as someone who understands military basics, that's on you. (And I invite you to answer the cannon question, also. )

 

[ScottJ85]

And I'm officially out of patience.

 

[DigificWriter]

Let's see, in previous Star Wars films we had a five year old jumping into the cockpit of a fighter and taking out a massive battleship,

He was 9.

 

[BillJ]

He was 9.

Um, that doesn't make it any better.

 

[ScottJ85]

He was 9.

True, but let's face it, my piloting skills were about the same at age nine as they were at age five

 

[DigificWriter]

Um, that doesn't make it any better.

The truth is always better than a lie.

True, but let's face it, my piloting skills were about the same at age nine as they were at age five

The difference between you and Anakin is that you're not Force-sensitive.

 

[BillJ]

The truth is always better than a lie.

Or someone misremembered his age, or hit the wrong key. It isn't always a lie when someone misstates something.

 

[ScottJ85]

Yeah, I just misremembered. The overall point still stands, I think.

 

[fireproof78]

I didn't intend to hurt your feelings, but I consider at least a vague familiarity with the bare-bones basics of militaries (as in, who is or is not a combatant, and that many soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines are technicians) to be nearly as essential to being a learned adult as, say, being able to explain the concept of judicial review. I certainly find it galling that one can earn a graduate degree and not know that many armed forces service members are technicians; it's a sad commentary on the dangerous and indeed very harmful segregation of military families and communities from society at large. If you take offense at my pointing out the extent of your ignorance, while nonetheless presenting yourself as someone who understands military basics, that's on you. (And I invite you to answer the cannon question, also. )

I do know the military. I was planning on enlisting until I got married. I have three uncles, one in the army, one who served as a Marine and Army DI, and an uncle who served in the Navy.

Now, if we are done measuring knowledge...

My point was that Rose, in the story, serves as the common person's perspective. Yes, in the Resistance, she is a combatant. In service of the story, she offers the everyperson point of view, someone the audience can sympathize with. She is not the soldier's point of view, or the Jedi's point of view, or the leader's point of view. That's my point.

I take offense at the fact that rather than attempting to be kind, you were rude and insisting that I was ignorant and telling me to "read a book" while finding amusement at my supposed ignorance. Not grounds for a good faith discussion.

 

[Gaith]

She is not the soldier's point of view

Aaaaand, despite being corrected, you continue to make the same mistake. Unless you'd like to tell your uncles that the Army, Marine Corps, and Navy don't have technicians, and then report back on said conversations, the term you seem to attempting to evoke for is infantry. You mean to say "she is not the infantry soldier's point of view." Until you lean to use that basic term, you're disrespecting pretty much all those service members not in infantry/, and flaunting, yes, your ignorance.

 

[fireproof78]

Aaaaand, despite being corrected, you continue to make the same mistake. Unless you'd like to tell your uncles that the Army, Marine Corps, and Navy don't have technicians, and then report back on said conversations, the term you seem to attempting to evoke for is infantry. You mean to say "she is not the infantry soldier's point of view." Until you lean to use that basic term, you're disrespecting pretty much all those service members not in infantry/, and flaunting, yes, your ignorance.

You are missing the point over a term, but in the interest of moving this discussion along I will concede the language. Yes, I am fully aware that a person in the Army is a soldier regardless of MOS, a person in the Navy is a sailor, regardless of MOS, a Marine is a Marine and any person in the Air Force is an Airmen, regardless of MOS or gender.

*deep breath* back to Star Wars.

Rose is the average soldier's point of view, designed as an everyperson point of view that the audience can relate with in some way, either by being a sister, of losing someone in combat, or being more in the logistics side rather than the combat side.

Now, if we are done parsing language can we move on? Because, if not, then I see no reason to continue this discussion since there is insistence upon being technically correct and rude to the point of breaking down the conversation. It is not longer a good faith discussion but rather a competition for who can be more "technically correct." I'll not play this game.


ETA: The term that I should have used instead of soldier was "warrior" referring to archetypal characters in stories, of which SW is quite famous. So, instead of soldier read it as warrior and that's my point on the matter. Rose is not the warrior's point of view.

1. The Warrior
It’s the man with a plan. Armed with a particular set of skills and the sheer force of their will, the hero will conquer the enemy and carry the day. This incredibly competent character will usually suffer a crisis of confidence at their lowest ebb — which they must overcome if they are to rise once more.

Strengths: Courage, strength (physical or mental), and ability.

Weaknesses: Overconfidence, ego.

Desires: To save the day and prove their worth.

 

[ScottJ85]

The lesson I’m taking from all of this is that trying to argue that the thing you enjoyed is actually bad and you didn’t really enjoy it, leads to a miserable time for everyone involved.

 

[fireproof78]

The lesson I’m taking from all of this is that trying to argue that the thing you enjoyed is actually bad and you didn’t really enjoy it, leads to a miserable time for everyone involved.

I mean, that's fair, but I do like the learn other people's point of view. Even if I disagree.

I just don't enjoy word lawyering. Though, I am guilty of it from time to time

And you can skip the PT references, because I consider those movies unsalvageable garbage as well.

Part of Star Wars and therefore valid in this discussion.

 

[Gaith]

any person in the Air Force is an Airmen, regardless of MOS or gender.

No, any person in the Air Force is an Airman, regardless of MOS or gender.

Okay, moving on. For the third time, TLJ fans: why did the First Order's huge cannon target the stationary base and not the fleeing vessels?

And, just for fun, here's two more!

- Why did Finn, who has lived in a military his entire life before a week prior to the story, to the point where he never even privately gave himself a name, carelessly park their ship on an empty beach? Why isn't someone that ingrained in military culture wary of unfamiliar local rules and regulations when attempting a covert mission? For that matter, same question for Rose, a theoretically trained uniformed combatant? Were they always that stupid, or did they take lessons?

- Why is Rose so pleased that the space cows got free to roam a pasture, specifically calling that (and not the stampede through the town, which she laughed throughout, despite the fact that they could easily have been killing children and indentured servants along the way), "the real victory?" Is there any reason the local authorities wouldn't be able to recapture the cows the next day, and possibly torture and/or kill them for good measure? And, if they were recaptured, tortured, and killed the next day, would those few hours of escape (for which, again, children and indentured servants might also have died), really have been worth it? Was Rose always that shortsided and egocentric, or did she take lessons?

And, one more on top of all that!

- Why did Rose not think that ramming Finn's speeder, assuming she could even do so without them both getting shot up by the First Order, would probably kill him just as surely as his kamikaze run, but without the obvious tactical benefit? Did she know Finn has plot armor? Did she read the script? Put another way, was she always that insane, or did she take lessons?!

 

[fireproof78]

Put another way, was she always that insane, or did she take lessons?!

Insensitive and rude.

This conversation is going nowhere.

 

[ScottJ85]

I mean, that's fair, but I do like the learn other people's point of view. Even if I disagree.

I try to do that whenever I can, but in this case, it's the negativity and the arrogance that gets to me. It's fine to not like a thing, it's fine to explain your reasons for not liking a thing, but acting like those who do enjoy that thing are poor misguided fools who need to be enlightened, that's just a dick move.

And assuming it's desirable, or even possible, to argue someone out of enjoying a movie is just plain hubris.

 

[DigificWriter]

why did the First Order's huge cannon target the stationary base and not the fleeing vessels?

Hubris.

Why did Finn, who has lived in a military his entire life before a week prior to the story, to the point where he never even privately gave himself a name, carelessly park their ship on an empty beach? Why isn't someone that ingrained in military culture wary of unfamiliar local rules and regulations when attempting a covert mission?

Where else did you want them to park their craft?

Why is Rose so pleased that the space cows got free to roam a pasture, specifically calling that (and not the stampede through the town, which she laughed throughout, despite the fact that they could easily have been killing children and indentured servants along the way), "the real victory?" Is there any reason the local authorities wouldn't be able to recapture the cows the next day, and possibly torture and/or kill them for good measure? And, if they were recaptured, tortured, and killed the next day, would those few hours of escape (for which, again, children and indentured servants might also have died), really have been worth it?

Rose valued the Fathiers - as helpless creatures - over the people indulging themselves on the "spoils of war" and was confident that, once freed, the Fathiers could take care of themselves.

Why did Rose not think that ramming Finn's speeder, assuming she could even do so without them both getting shot up by the First Order, would probably kill him just as surely as his kamikaze run, but without the obvious tactical benefit?

She was acting on emotion.

 

[ScottJ85]

She was acting on emotion.

Yeah exactly, she represents the emotional heart of the Resistance. Many things factor into her decision making but logic is seldom part of it. Like her decision to save Finn - she basically weighed up the possibility of them both dying vs. the certainty that Finn would, decided she was more comfortable with one outcome than the other and went for it.

Where else did you want them to park their craft?

Parking on the beach like that was a boneheaded move, but that's all part of the greater theme. Their whole plan was a bad plan that they just rushed into and it got people killed.

 

[Ithekro]

Finn was also not a pilot. He was a stormtrooper. And seems to have been larger assigned to cleaning things and training. His first combat assignment appear to be the very one we first encounter him on Jakku, and it freaks him out enough to jump ship and run away. And until Rose opens his world view even more, Finn's only motivations are "run away" and "keep Rey safe" (which involves running way so she won't be lead back to the deathtrap of a Resistance Fleet he's currently on). Rose with Poe get Finn to decided to help the Resistance fleet survive with a fairly risky plan to stop the First Order from tracking the fleet, allowing them to escape (and this keeping Rey from coming back to the deathtrap). But no plan survives contact with the enemy, and things go from bad to worse, to, Rey was already inside the deathtrap area when Finn, Poe, and Ross' plan goes pear shaped.