The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by crookeddy, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    just so awful. Hux is actually worse as a character than Spaceballs Colonel Sanders! that's just for starters
     
  2. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Commander Red Shirt

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    Hux could have been an interesting villain and the tension between he and Kylo could make an interesting subplot in the 3rd movie, now that Snoke is out of the picture. That being said, I suspect we'll just see more of the raving idiot we'd seen in TFA and TLJ.

    The worst character for me was Admiral Holdo. I recall after the movie, my daughter said she thought it would be revealed that Holdo was working with the First Order due to her not revealing any sort of contingency plan and dismissing any attempts by Poe at getting the Resistance ships out of the mess they were in. And there really wasn't any reason. She (Holdo) could have offered some exposition to the audience that she was concerned about spies or some such, but no. She really offered no reason as to why she couldn't tell the people under her command.

    And let's be honest here, my daughter's confusion about Holdo's agenda is valid. The audience didn't know her. There was no established trust with this character. Had it been Leia or even Admiral Akbar, as a known character with that established trust, then we as the audience would have known that there was a plan and she/he had the Resistance's best interests at heart even if they weren't saying anything.

    It's sloppy writing IMHO.
     
  3. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was shown on-screen that Leia trusted Holdo.
     
  4. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    What he said.

    She didn't have to offer a reason, or explain her plan. Why would she tell Poe, who just got their entire bombing squadron killed for no reason, anything at all? They're a military organisation, she gives the orders, he shuts up and follows them. Not to mention they were being tracked through hyperspace, something that was previously impossible, leading any reasonable person to conclude that they may have a mole on board.

    The only mistake the filmmakers made was not spelling this out explicitly for the audience, instead expecting them to be intelligent enough to figure this out.
     
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  5. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Admiral Admiral

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    I am not sure that stuff plays well with what most want out of SW movie but I think it would work well with a SW tv show. Jason
     
  6. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I disagree with your presumption. Star Wars is not some complex drama with the intricacies of a thriller. It is (or was) a story filled with archetypes.. something for young an old. The key is finding that balance of storytelling that pleases both. They failed Oh and showing Leia trusted Holdo did not happen until just before the Holdo maneuver ..

    One of the things I always loved about the original films was their simplicity.. that the more complex themes and character traits were peppered in over time and never dumped sloppily
     
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  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly.
    This is true but Lucas introduced this complexity. One cannot remain in the cradle forever.
     
  8. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Commander Red Shirt

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    Our heroes as well as the audience are often misled.

    The latest Spiderman movie is a good example of this.

    Um, sorry, but one of the traits of a good leader is the ability to effectively communicate her plans to her subordinates. This builds trust throughout the chain of command. You can be the galaxy's foremost strategist, but if you can't communicate the objectives and goals of said strategy, it's all but useless.

    Regarding blame for the loss of the bomber squadron, I'd say that Leia shares some of it actually. If I recall the events of the movie correctly, Poe tells Leia that he's going to attack the dreadnought and Leia orders him to scrub the attack and turn around. Poe disobeys and turns off his radio; So Poe has a couple of things going against him right now:

    A) He's not thinking strategically as the FO can afford the loss of their dreadnought and it's crew much easier than the Resistance can afford the loss of their bombers and crew.
    B) He disobeys a direct order from his commanding officer, in this case Leia.

    The thing is, the bombers never turned off their radios. Why does Leia not simply order the bomber pilots to stop listening to Poe and bring their respective craft back to the ship? Here's a few reasons I can think of though there's probably others:

    A) She was initially okay with bombers completing their run on the dreadnought and only when the squadron was destroyed does she reverse course and make Poe the fall guy.
    B) She doesn't have the authority we (and the movie) assumed she does.
    C) Sloppy writing.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    It's also called need to know information. Poe didn't need to know, and had been demonstrated to be unreliable in following orders. He should be arrested and put in to the brig for disobeying a direct order from Leia. Holdo is playing things tight to the vest, for reasons that make perfect sense with the First Order tracking their fleet.

    Poe is not trustworthy in TLJ. Heck, if I were Resistance leadership I wouldn't be trusting him since Poe showed up with a First Order stormtrooper.
     
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  10. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Commander Red Shirt

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    Regard Poe, I agree, he should have clearly understood the strategic ramifications of attacking the dreadnought. Either he didn't, which makes him incompetent, or didn't care which is even worse and yeah, some time in the brig would have been justified regardless of the reasons.

    As far as Poe bringing Finn back to the Resistance base in TFA, he was employing the mission command philosophy; That is junior officers (as well as NCOs and others) executing actions "on the fly" as opportunities present themselves. I've no doubt this was employed time and again in real world theaters such as Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Back to Holdo though... Poe didn't know her plans, the audience didn't know her plans... so who knew? Her reasons for keeping the information to herself wasn't clear. We (the audience) as well as Holdo learn early on that the FO has technology that can track ships in hyperspace, so that kind of lays to rest the tracking thing. We're never given any other reason (spycraft, sabotage, etc...). So as far as the audience is concerned, she's deliberately withholding vital information for no apparent reason. Furthermore, we see later in the movie that her decision, indirectly leads to the deaths of dozens or hundreds of resistance fighters.

    I realize that Holdo couldn't "see" the future, but if Holdo had communicated her plans to her crew, Poe would have never sent Finn and Rose to Canto Bight. Finn/Rose would have not tried to disable the hyperspace tracking thing-a-ma-bob on Snoke's ship, DJ would not have betrayed Holdo's final plan and the FO wouldn't have be shooting down Resistance transports like fish in a barrel.

    Again, we can speculate as to who did or didn't know about Holdo's plans, but for certain, we know that we, the audience, didn't know, Poe didn't know, Finn and Rose didn't know, crew members close to Poe didn't know as they participated in Poe's plan to mutiny, Holdo certainly knew, Leia probably knew but was in a coma, and for some reason DJ knew or at least had intimate knowledge of the tactics used by the Resistance leadership as well as the shortcomings in First Order sensor technology... I'm not even sure why DJ would know any of this stuff, but whatever...
     
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I agree, but the lack of knowledge, in my opinion, shouldn't have led to a mutiny and insubordination on Poe's part. He is still an officer. He can present his arguments and his concerns but if the command is lawful (Holdo's was) then he had an obligation to follow it.

    I'm not saying Holdo handled it perfectly, mind. I am saying that Poe's action are not excusable just because Hold withheld information from an officer who had just demonstrated a refusal to follow orders.

    As for DJ, I figured he had gathered the information based upon the ships that had been sold to both the Resistance and the First Order. I don't think he knew the tactics, so much as he knew the ships and was able to tell the First Order what to look for. I'd have to rewatch though to be certain.
     
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  12. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, well, if you're going to play that card, then any exposition could be a deception, which undermines anything Holdo might say. That goes double, if she's actually a spy, and nothing she says can be trusted. Congratulations, you've just undermined your whole objection of why didn't they have Holdo make her intentions clear, as you're now arguing that making her intentions clear is not even possible, especially if she might be a spy.
     
  13. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Commander Red Shirt

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    So we agree then that many of the characters in TLJ, especially Holdo, are poorly written. ;)
     
  14. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Holdo wasn't under any obligation to tell anyone what was going on. Poe was just under every obligation to obey orders. He was the poorly written one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  15. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No.
     
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    He wasn't poorly written. He was an impulsive fly boy who disobeyed orders. It's trope, but not necessarily a poorly written one.
    Seconded.
     
  17. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    YMMV. I hated everything about Poe in The Last Jedi. He didn't seem anything like the character that was established in The Force Awakens to me. To me, that sounds like bad writing.
     
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  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    My mileage definitely varies. I like Poe...period. He is an engaging character for me, with flaws. He is passionate and impulsive at times. I look forward to seeing his growth from 8 to 9.

    ETA: Saw a link to a Forbes article that discusses why Episode IX doesn't need to retcon Episode 8 regarding Rey's parents in order to make a good film or trilogy. I agree with a lot of points, namely that fan theories hyped-up expectations more than was actually needed to serve the story.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  19. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    Choosing not to communicate the plan with a subordinate who has proven to be untrustworthy is a perfectly valid decision. Everyone who actually had a need to know, knew. The bridge crew clearly did, Poe was the only one surprised to find out what the plan actually was.

    I swear some people wouldn’t have been happy unless Holdo looked directly into the camera and explicitly explained this.
     
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  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    You might be on to something.
     
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