The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[fireproof78]

Sure. I'm not even denying that the whole defying expectations thing isn't an issue, I just don't think it's strongly linked to actual dislike or hatred of the movie. In some ways, it's the Jar Jar Binks of TLJ - the thing people find convenient to focus on rather than the deep down reason things didn't land.



ROTJ... It was the best of Wars, it was the worst of Wars.

I think it is a mix of a lot of factors, and I would put expectations towards the top of the list, but I'll completely grant that other factors will fit that too. My biggest struggle with the PT is the characters, and I have seen plenty of comments regarding Rey and co. and not appealing to some in the audience. I just think when arguments get to the ruination of all of Disney that expectations aren feeding that conclusion.

 

[Ithekro]

There was a lot of back and forth in 1982 (my earliest memories of anything about it really) about The Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Jedi (before it was re-titled to Return of the Jedi). Empire was still the big downer film where the heroes barely escaped with their lives. The film had no conclusive ending. Just an "and they got away". Han Solo was a question mark. The big surprise from Darth Vader was debated a lot (he is telling the truth, is it all a lie?) and a bunch of other stuff about the Force and Jedi via Yoda and Luke. People didn't know what was going on, though there was already talk of the Death Star appearing again, and some were for and some were against the idea.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^ Yeah, at the time TESB took a lot of heat for the cliffhanger.

 

[BillJ]

People "hated" Empire when it came out, I suspect that Last Jedi will get re-evaluated in a few years and end up being considered the best of the Disney era films if not the best of the entire franchise because where it took it.

I think the Canto Bright and chase scenes are too weak for me to ever consider it as the best of the franchise.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think Last Jedi is 'Widely hated'. It's widely divisive, and the negative views are screamed the loudest.

Not a perfect film by any means but to me by far the best that is not part of the original trilogy.

 

[DonIago]

I actually found the same thing a few years ago. I'm 31 now. When I was 18-21 or so, I'd watch the OT with my friends all the time. I never really went off it, but I just kinda stopped appreciating it. Then I went about five years without watching it and was blown away anew when I popped the DVD back in. The same thing happened with LOTR, which I watched obsessively as a teenager.

As much as people talk about nostalgia as a reason the OT gets so much praise, I also think there's some 'seen it too any times' fatigue around. It's hard not to get 'meh' about something when you're overexposed to it. It's a bit like when you drink coffee all day or smoke a lot of weed - after a while, you just don't notice the positives.

Funny you mention LotR, as I feel the same way about those movies (and the Hobbit films, which I guess I like more than most). In their cases it's partly runtime and the density of the material, for lack of a better way of putting it, but I have a really hard time committing to watching them (especially without any distractions) because I've seen them multiple times.

It doesn't help that in my case I have a bunch of movies on-hand that I haven't seen and probably should, so...rewatch something I'm possibly too familiar with, or explore something new?

 

[Awesome Possum]

In order for that to happen Disney would have to summon an "Order 66" on Star Wars fans; there's too many issues with the movie, especially when locked into an SJW era, for it to be considered the best of the Disney era films in a hypothetical years to come. This piece of sh*t of a movie is not fine wine. This just shows you haven't watched much Disney films from this era; Disney has produced a lot of quality films than a popcorn serial plant like The Last Jedi. Like the movie all you want, but lets keep the hokey, crystal ball predictions of a movie which was never designed for any substance, but to muddy the aura of the OT heroes just to make their new characters look better.

SJW era? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Shouldn't we all support social justice? Seems that only a terrible human being would be against that, someone who wants others to be oppressed and harmed.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I think the Canto Bright and chase scenes are too weak for me to ever consider it as the best of the franchise.

The chase scene was a needless action scene, probably there to keep the special effects fans happy. The rest of the sequence was character development and showed us the state of the galaxy without having the tell us, setting up the final act and what Luke's sacrifice really meant to the galaxy. Removing it weakens the ending, weakens what Luke did and robs Finn of actual motivation for joining the Resistance.

 

[DonIago]

I guess my question is why this particular movie suddenly felt the urge to show us the rest of the galaxy while the others seemed largely content to focus on the places and people who were of primary interest.

Plus...at the end of RotJ things are supposed to be going fairly well for the galaxy, aren't they? Or sometime soon after? How do we get from there to the direness of the galaxy in TFA and to the rampant corruption and such shown in TLJ?

In that light, it's like TLJ is trying to make up for all the galaxybuilding the other films should have made time for, but what it's showing us doesn't seem to mesh with what we've already seen.

There's also the question of how the galaxy at large even learns about what happened with Luke...

 

[Albertese]

For my personal opinion, TLJ was by far the worst Star Wars movie, PT included. The writing was lazy and nonsensical. But I won't bother justifying my opinion in detail: I know it's well-considered and anyone who disagrees with me is free to do so.

I saw the movie once when it opened in theaters, and my opinion at the time was basically, 'huh... that was... fine?... I guess?' I didn't hate it, but the pacing problems and logical holes seemed obvious to me from the get-go. And the worst thing was this: I walked out of the theater with no interest whatever about what might be in Episode IX. This was the first time I saw a film in this franchise without giving the littlest damn about what was going to come next.

The thing lingered in my mind, though. I couldn't stop thinking about it and it just seemed dumber and dumber the more I thought it through. I spoke about it with my friends and my opinion plummeted even further. Eventually I watched a few YouTube complaint videos which only served to crystallize ideas I had already had. I saw it once more when it came to Netflix and I could hardly make my self sit through the whole thing. This film is a cinematic turd as far as I can see.

But the OP asked about widespread hate. I will concede that the film did take a lot of money in the total box office figures. However, its ranking dropped pretty rapidly after opening weekend, meaning that people weren't going back to see it again, or maybe that people heard from their opening weekend friends that it was worth skipping, or would be better on video. That drop off is not a good sign. Another clue is in the merchandising; TLJ toys and other merch warmed the shelves. Stores couldn't sell this stuff. Interestingly, most of the current film merch has OT stuff released in parallel, and that stuff is bought up fairly quickly still, which suggests to me that it isn't just overall franchise fatigue, it's these specific movies. Also the performance of Solo is a clue. To tell the truth, I really enjoyed Solo, yet is was kind of a bomb. Sure, it suffered from a few of the difficulties that any franchise's prequel could suffer from, but, overall, I would call it a very competent movie. I posit that enough people were still feeling let down from their TLJ experience five months earlier that they just decided to skip it.

So, is TLJ widely hated? Maybe not. But I see no sign of it being widely loved.

--Alex

 

[Gavin70]

As for expectations, I just think that’s an excuse people rely on too much. Personally, TLJ was not what I expected, but I also just didn’t think it was very good. Most ideas sound fine in a broader sense - in fact my favourite ST moment was Luke throwing away the lightsaber - but I felt they were poorly executed.

I don't disagree with that. But I think the subversion of expectations is what led to outright hatred. It's by no means a perfect movie. There are numerous flaws in it. But people don't make endless youtube videos for other, more objectively bad, movies. How many people spent time ranting about Mariah Carey's Glitter, for example? If it was just a bad movie people would have disliked it, forgotten it, and moved on. But if you look at the complaints people make, many of them are about how the story didn't go the way they thought it should have. The issues are about how Snoke was killed instead of being the overall big bad. Or about how Luke shouldn't have been in hiding and should have been more of an issue. There are plenty of legitimate issues with TLJ (like pacing and the disconnect of the, in the end pointless, side trip of Finn and Rose). But they don't seem to get the attention of the other things which were more about expectations.

 

[Gavin70]

Jeez, the thought of watching LOTR obsessively as a teenager...damn I'm old!

When I was a teenager I was reading LOTR obsessively.

I remember a time when the only way to watch LOTR was the (then sparkling and new) animated version!

And I saw that in the theatre when it was originally released. When it finished half way through I nearly threw things at the screen.

 

[Gavin70]

SJW era? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Shouldn't we all support social justice? Seems that only a terrible human being would be against that, someone who wants others to be oppressed and harmed.

That's always my response when people complain about SJW's. Why would anybody be against social justice?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I guess my knquestion is why this particular movie suddenly felt the urge to show us the rest of the galaxy while the others seemed largely content to focus on the places and people who were of primary interest.

Plus...at the end of RotJ things are supposed to be going fairly well for the galaxy, aren't they? Or sometime soon after? How do we get from there to the direness of the galaxy in TFA and to the rampant corruption and such shown in TLJ?

In that light, it's like TLJ is trying to make up for all the galaxybuilding the other films should have made time for, but what it's showing us doesn't seem to mesh with what we've already seen.

There's also the question of how the galaxy at large even learns about what happened with Luke...

Everyone in the the galaxy knows who is Luke is, even Rey and she grew up on a desert planet. Word of Luke returning and fighting the First Order by himself is going to spread like gossip, possibly being farther embellished. That’s the whole point of the end scene, it had even reached Canto and it was inspiring people. One of which was shown to have Force abilities. That’s the whole point and why the scale of what we’re shown was enlarged. The galaxy still hasn’t been saved, people still live in slavery and misery and the Republic turned a blind eye towards it like the Old Republic did with Tattooine. For some people, there was probably no difference between life under the Empire or the Republic. But I think the series is headed towards ending that once and for all. Luke has woken up the entire galaxy, one that may be full of potential Force users ready to rise up and make a better galaxy. This may be Luke’s greatest achievement.

 

[Skipper]

I'm sorry if some nuances of the American society elude me, but when did "justice" become an insult..?

 

[Gavin70]

I'm sorry if some nuances of the American society elude me, but when did "justice" become an insult..?

There's a reason why Superman rarely talks about "truth, justice and the American way" anymore.

 

[HugeLobes]

But if you look at the complaints people make, many of them are about how the story didn't go the way they thought it should have

This is true, but I think it's more that has become the loudest of complaints. Like I said before, it's kinda the movie's Jar Jar Binks.

I guess my question is why this particular movie suddenly felt the urge to show us the rest of the galaxy while the others seemed largely content to focus on the places and people who were of primary interest.

I think part of the problem with Star Wars right now is the idea of a 'Star Wars Universe'.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess my question is why this particular movie suddenly felt the urge to show us the rest of the galaxy while the others seemed largely content to focus on the places and people who were of primary interest.

Because we had a character who had been incredibly isolated and fed propaganda their entire life. It was a wonderful opportunity to expand upon the galaxy as a whole. Much in the same way TPM and AOTC showcased a wider variety of factions in the body politic of the galaxy and Anakin's relatively limited point of view.

Canto Bight is basically a planet where politics are little more than a paycheck. It's much more relevant than many would like to believe.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not arguing that, but given how many people seem to take issue with the sequence, it seems relevant to question whether it was really helpful to the film.

 

[Campe]

I think part of the problem with Star Wars right now is the idea of a 'Star Wars Universe'.

There has been a Star Wars Universe for many years prior to the Disney takeover. While spinoff movies and tv series have been added to the books and comics of the much beloved EU of old. But it has a wider audience now. I, for one, got fed up with the EU. I don’t consume everything in the new ”canon” these days but much of what I have read and watched I’ve enjoyed on some level.