The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?
- Thread starter crookeddy
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Personally I'm inclined to disagree with your assessment of Avatar, but that's my own subjective take for another day. Both TLJ and TFA do awe a lot to the originals but again I'm not sure about your factual assertion of the quality of the writing. Seems to me TLJ did a lot that was significantly cleverer than previous installments in the way it subverted the tropes the franchise had been built upon and commented on it's own place in cultural history.
The fact there were a significant number of people who took offence to that commentary and saw it as a betrayal doesn't invalidate its worth in my mind or those of a large portion of the fanbase who did like it.
Define "quality" in this context, it's a pretty nebulous concept which inevitably involves invoking some measure of subjectivity somewhere.[/QUOTE]
There's a reason for that.
Ah, yes, that's it !
I thought there were parts of the plot which were lacking, but the actual character development and arcs were very strong.
Precisely so. I don't think there would have been as strong of a reaction if the characters had gone in predictable routes. Much is thrown at Johnson for subverting expectations but I think he did well with that and the story flowed well from TFA's set ups. The fact that it didn't meet expectations means that people were more engaged with the material and care more than I think is generally acknowledged.
When most of the "complaints" that many of the people who didn't like the film level against The Last Jedi basically amount to "this film didn't give me what I wanted and therefore it sucks", the problem lies with the people making that complaint, not the film itself.
Yes, there are people out there with legitimate and well-thought-out complaints about the film (an online friend of mine who hosts a couple of podcasts that I listen to frequently immediately comes to mind in this regard), but those people are not the ones whose voices "dominate the conversation"; it's the people with very little ground to stand on in their viewpoints other than "it wasn't what I wanted and so it sucks" who end up being the loudest voices in the room and consequently fueling this false narrative that the film is massively divisive.
Also, it was George Lucas himself who came up with the concept of Luke being a bitter old hermit hiding in a cave.
Yes, there are people out there with legitimate and well-thought-out complaints about the film (an online friend of mine who hosts a couple of podcasts that I listen to frequently immediately comes to mind in this regard), but those people are not the ones whose voices "dominate the conversation"; it's the people with very little ground to stand on in their viewpoints other than "it wasn't what I wanted and so it sucks" who end up being the loudest voices in the room and consequently fueling this false narrative that the film is massively divisive.
Also, it was George Lucas himself who came up with the concept of Luke being a bitter old hermit hiding in a cave.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Ignoring comments that are not worth being responded to, I have far less trepidation about JJ Abrams directing Episode IX than I did about him directing The Force Awakens because of the fact that he was not only an Executive Producer on The Last Jedi, but also, by his own admission, spoke directly with Rian Johnson throughout the production of that film and is fully aware of what he needs to build upon and expand.
I will admit right now that I acknowledge that there's a chance Abrams could end up changing some things about The Last Jedi in the course of building upon and expanding what Rian did in that film, but there's a distinction between doing things that place elements of The Last Jedi in a different context than was originally intended by Johnson and taking a "red pen" to elements of The Last Jedi and pretending they didn't happen.
I will admit right now that I acknowledge that there's a chance Abrams could end up changing some things about The Last Jedi in the course of building upon and expanding what Rian did in that film, but there's a distinction between doing things that place elements of The Last Jedi in a different context than was originally intended by Johnson and taking a "red pen" to elements of The Last Jedi and pretending they didn't happen.
This movie is hated by, well, the 100% of people who hate it.
And I don't really care about these people's opinions because, like I already said, If someone is really hating some products of modern popular culture fiction, well, this someone should seek out professional help like, immediately.
And I don't really care about these people's opinions because, like I already said, If someone is really hating some products of modern popular culture fiction, well, this someone should seek out professional help like, immediately.
That's the struggle. It isn't that the movie is hated-it's that the hatred talking points are the ones so easily pointed to. So, it appears far bigger than it really is.
Here's my thing. I already went through this cycle with the PT and realize that those films are not for me. They don't really inform my opinion on the OT and I can generally regard them as separated films for the most part. I enjoy the PT as a thought experiment more than anything else.
For me, life is way to short to be worried about a film to hate on because I'd rather watch things I like.
I don't think anyone expects JJ to just ignore the events of TLJ. What I don't want happening is Ep 9 saying "hey Rey, your parents are actually Skywalkers, Kylo just lied" and "Snoke is still alive, it was all a trick, here is some exposition to explain his life story". I'd like JJ to respect what happened in Ep 8, even if he takes the story in another direction.
Everyone I know personally who "hates" TLJ saw it once or not at all.
For those that attempted repeated viewings - they also reported enjoying it more the second or third time.
I don't think fans were expecting the themes of TLJ to be so challenging: failure, false expectations and the deconstruction of Luke (as our hero) was pretty brutal. Still, kind of hard to be critical without the final chapter in place. I'd rather base my criticism on the Sequel Trilogy as a whole once it's complete in December.
For those that attempted repeated viewings - they also reported enjoying it more the second or third time.
I don't think fans were expecting the themes of TLJ to be so challenging: failure, false expectations and the deconstruction of Luke (as our hero) was pretty brutal. Still, kind of hard to be critical without the final chapter in place. I'd rather base my criticism on the Sequel Trilogy as a whole once it's complete in December.
I've heard enough horror stories to avoid those comment section. I will skim the comments on Tor.com and Io9 sometimes, but they seem to mostly be populated by fairly civil, intelligent people, so the attitude there seems to be closer to here than places like Youtube.
The big thing here that a lot of people either forgot or didn't get, is that Kylo Ren didn't actually say anything, he convinced Rey to acknowledge what she already knew. If you really wanted you could say he manipulated her into thinking that, but it's not as simple and straightforward as him just coming out and lying about it.Rey's parentage could still go either way. Are we supposed to just take Darth Emo's word at face value?
Kor
I really couldn't imagine hating something as much as people seem to hate TLJ. I'm a huge Trekkie and Star Wars fan, and there are elements of the two franchise I don't like, like Star Trek: Nemesis, and the Clone Wars episode A Sunny Day in the Void, for example, but even with those, which are probably one of my absolute least favorite elements of the franchises, I still can't build up the kind of pure, firey hatred people seem to have for TLJ. And I love these franchise, they my two favorite parts of the entertainment industry and I have watched more shows and movie, read more books and comics, and played more games than I can even begin to count, but for some reason I just can't think of any part of the franchise, even Nem and ASDITV, that I react to the way that people do TLJ.
But, that's how it's being portrayed. Like someone else noted, it's like tearing apart "The Two Towers" for problems when there is a third film still to come. Or, another person who reviewed ROTJ noted that ROTJ really fills in and lifts up ESB to the status we treat it now.
Or should I be mad that I had to pay full price for Fellowship of the Rings, the Two Towers and Return of the King?
Absolutely! It started a horrible trend.
Back to the Future 2 did just fine as a standalone movie. Lord of the rings movies were arbitrarily split.