The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[Campe]

She was out of place and unnecessary.

You already had akbar and leia. To kill off akbar so dismisvly immediately made me hostile to the character and sliding leia into the background put me off as well.

Then there is the fact she lacked any sort of military discipline or military competence. The audience had zero reason to trust her.
You just killed off ackbar and Leia then bring in a new character that doesn't act or look like admiral? Military officers in combat dont wear long fancy dresses , its dangrous.

She maybe would of worked as a senator like mon mothma.

At the very least they could of stuck her in a practical military style uniform.

While I can accept most of the criticisms here, one thing to remember is that these are people on the run. We don't know what Holdo was doing when she joined the fleet. Perhaps she was attending some sort of a state function and didn't have time to get into uniform. I got the impression that since Poe was unfamiliar with Holdo, I don't think she was stationed with the crew on D'Qar. She may have been contacted by Leia to rush to join them arriving right before the First Order did and just didn't have time to get into uniform. Its speculation, sure. But we're on a Star Trek board. Our fandom has been trying to connect the disparate dots since 1966!

 

[Crazyewok]

While I can accept most of the criticisms here, one thing to remember is that these are people on the run. We don't know what Holdo was doing when she joined the fleet. Perhaps she was attending some sort of a state function and didn't have time to get into uniform. I got the impression that since Poe was unfamiliar with Holdo, I don't think she was stationed with the crew on D'Qar. She may have been contacted by Leia to rush to join them arriving right before the First Order did. Its speculation, sure. But we're on a Star Trek board. Our fandom has been trying to connect the disparate dots since 1966!

Maybe.

End of the day from leia I instantly get the impression of great military leader.
Holdo? I just did not trust.

But then I could just be bitter from seeing ackbar die so dissmisvely. I know it's weird but I always loved the idea of a giant talking fish as commander of the rebellions fleet.

I do agree with most here though that Poe was a giant dick.

 

[Campe]

Maybe.

End of the day from leia I instantly get the impression of great military leader.
Holdo? I just did not trust.

But then I could just be bitter from seeing ackbar die so dissmisvely. I know it's weird but I always loved the idea of a giant talking fish as commander of the rebellions fleet.

You're entitled to your feelings for sure, but Ackbar only appeared in three films as a very supporting character. He maybe had 20 lines across these movies. I'll agree in saying I think that we should have seen a moment where Ackbar had a bigger moment before his death in TLJ, but it was done for shock factor. Its supposed to piss you off. Ackbar is a character we trusted. He should have led the fight. He would have trusted Poe. The idea is that you're not supposed to like or trust Holdo. She's supposed to unsettle you. So, maybe Rian did something right.

ETA: Okay, Ackbar had 22 lines across 3 movies - 14 in Jedi, and 4 in Force Awakens and Last Jedi respectively.

 

[Crazyewok]

You're entitled to your feelings for sure, but Ackbar only appeared in three films as a very supporting character. He maybe had 20 lines across these movies. I'll agree in saying I think that we should have seen a moment where Ackbar had a bigger moment before his death in TLJ, but it was done for shock factor. Its supposed to piss you off. Ackbar is a character we trusted. He should have led the fight. He would have trusted Poe. The idea is that you're not supposed to like or trust Holdo. She's supposed to unsettle you. So, maybe Rian did something right.

ETA: Okay, Ackbar had 22 lines across 3 movies - 14 in Jedi, and 4 in Force Awakens and Last Jedi respectively.

I think, if had not been for my other complaints of the film I may have thought differently and accepted her.
I think by that point in the film I had already a negative impression.

 

[Spot261]

Mon motha though was a political figure and not a military leader.
Leia ended up more the combat orientated leader of the rebellions along with akbar.

Holdo would of fitted the part of politician well.

She just didn't work well as a admiral.

In what sense did she not work? Mon Mothma had clear oversight of military matters even if she wasn't actively involved and the distinction seems to me to be superfluous. There were clear similarities, not least in the fact that our heroes unquestioningly defer to Mothma despite us knowing next to nothing about her. Holdo, on the other hand, is subordinate to Leia and we are given at least some inkling of who she is in the dialogue.

Holdo worked for me, YMMV.

 

[Spot261]

You're entitled to your feelings for sure, but Ackbar only appeared in three films as a very supporting character. He maybe had 20 lines across these movies. I'll agree in saying I think that we should have seen a moment where Ackbar had a bigger moment before his death in TLJ, but it was done for shock factor. Its supposed to piss you off. Ackbar is a character we trusted. He should have led the fight. He would have trusted Poe. The idea is that you're not supposed to like or trust Holdo. She's supposed to unsettle you. So, maybe Rian did something right.

ETA: Okay, Ackbar had 22 lines across 3 movies - 14 in Jedi, and 4 in Force Awakens and Last Jedi respectively.

Sill less than Holdo.

 

[Crazyewok]

In what sense did she not work? Mon Mothma had clear oversight of military matters even if she wasn't actively involved and the distinction seems to me to be superfluous. There were clear similarities, not least in the fact that our heroes unquestioningly defer to Mothma despite us knowing next to nothing about her. Holdo, on the other hand, is subordinate to Leia and we are given at least some inkling of who she is in the dialogue.

Holdo worked for me, YMMV.

mon mothma had oversight but was not in the military chain of command, obviously not being in the chain of command gives one some personal freedoms.

To be honest there probably isnt anything wrong with Holdo. But by that point in the film I already had a pretty negative impression of the film for other reasons, so killing off ackavar and replacing him was going to be another strike for me. Doesn't matter really who the replaced him with I was probably going think negatively of them.

 

[Campe]

Depending upon how the rebellion was set up, it’s possible that Mom Mothma, being the leader of the rebellion, would be the Commander in Chief of their forces. So not only would she be in the chain of command, she’d be at the very top of it.

 

[Spot261]

Depending upon how the rebellion was set up, it’s possible that Mom Mothma, being the leader of the rebellion, would be the Commander in Chief of their forces. So not only would she be in the chain of command, she’d be at the very top of it.

Much as the POTUS is the CiC of the USAF.

I think there's a great deal of overstatement where it comes to the prominence of Ackbar owing to that line. We know nothing about him from the OT and whilst the old EU did in fact expand on that an awful lot of what we do know finds its' origins in the comic published prior to ROTJ. Nothing in the film gives us the name of his species, home planet or, for that matter, even his gender. We are given essentially nothing about him as a character at all and his lines, being exclusively tactical in nature, could just as easily have been delivered by other players.

Where we do have emotional investment in him is the fact that we have spent decades riffing on "It's a trap!" and he has thus become synonymous with a film trilogy in which he was truly nothing more than a bit player.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Back when it was primarily white and male.

In a slightly facetious way I could say you're kind of right.. it just told its story,and didn't get into diversity, identity politics, or trying to make sure that no one was offended or left out. all that mattered back then was the story and the universe, not the agenda behind the scenes.

Again you cna include all the races and genders you want.. everyone can be represented. Yet the conversation has been all about inclusion and not about the story.. and if that's what the conversation is, I'm losing interest in the franchise.

 

[Campe]

I don't recall a lot of discussion of inclusion and diversity within the bounds of the story. If you choose to look beyond that, that's your problem. I know you don't like the new movies and that's fine. I just try not to take all of that into consideration in my enjoyment of a movie. I find the behind the scenes machinations of the Star Wars movies fascinating. But agendas, whether they are imagined or real, shouldn't play a part in the enjoyment of a movie.

 

[Spot261]

Did Rose say something along the lines of "Hey, you're Finn, the black guy who's also a resistance hero? Pleased to meet you, I'm Rose the tokenistic Asian character everyone will hate for not adhering to Hollywood standards of beauty"?

 

[Crazyewok]

Did Rose say something along the lines of "Hey, you're Finn, the black guy who's also a resistance hero? Pleased to meet you, I'm Rose the tokenistic Asian character everyone will hate for not adhering to Hollywood standards of beauty"?

I actually found Finns development somewhat racist.

He went from a interesting character with potential in force awkens to turning him into some 1990's stereotype black goof ball character. The only thing more racist would be to have stuck a blunt in his hand.

 

[Spot261]

I actually found Finns development somewhat racist.

He went from a interesting character with potential in force awkens to turning him into some 1990's stereotype black goof ball character. The only thing more racist would be to have stuck a blunt in his hand.

To be fair I wasn't singling you out there, despite you being involved in the exchange. There are a couple of people who seem very confused about their own objections.

 

[Crazyewok]

To be fair I wasn't singling you out there, despite you being involved in the exchange. There are a couple of people who seem very confused about their own objections.

I know.

I am just pissed as Finn was my favorite new character in the force awakens. And Rian butchered him.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I actually found Finns development somewhat racist.

He went from a interesting character with potential in force awkens to turning him into some 1990's stereotype black goof ball character. The only thing more racist would be to have stuck a blunt in his hand.

I thought he was a goofball in the force awakens as well. That scene between him and Han on starkiller station when Han is sort of gesturing with his head for Finn to turn around and see that Rey is right behind them and Finn is all, "what is this? Why are you doing this with your head?" was a cringe worthy of Jar Jar Binks.

 

[Awesome Possum]

In a slightly facetious way I could say you're kind of right.. it just told its story,and didn't get into diversity, identity politics, or trying to make sure that no one was offended or left out. all that mattered back then was the story and the universe, not the agenda behind the scenes.

Again you cna include all the races and genders you want.. everyone can be represented. Yet the conversation has been all about inclusion and not about the story.. and if that's what the conversation is, I'm losing interest in the franchise.

The story is about the good guys fighting space Nazis using magic, space ships and adorable robots. Just like the original trilogy. Your obsession with diversity and identity politics being part of the story exists entirely in your imagination.

The movies haven’t changed, you have. You went from someone who could enjoy movies without outside ideas ruining for you to someone so obsessed with race and gender that you can’t stand movies because there aren’t enough white men to make you feel comfortable. Instead of trying to justify this, you should really reconsider why you feel this way now and what convinced you that this was true. Maybe then you can go back to enjoying movies again. Because on your current path you seem like you’ll just stay miserable.

 

[fireproof78]

"what is this? Why are you doing this with your head?" was a cringe worthy of Jar Jar Binks.

No way it was that bad.

 

[Turtletrekker]

No way it was that bad.

Except that it was.

 

[fireproof78]

Except that it was.

I'll just agree to disagree on this point. Because, as much as I think it was stupid, it was no worse than Kuzco in "Emperor's New Groove" willing his hooves.

Versus Jar-Jar. Sorry, can't go that far.