The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by crookeddy, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't really care how often lightsabers are whipped out as long as there's a story-driven reason for it to occur, which in the prequels generally seemed to be the case. The idea that lightsabers should be reserved for "big confrontations" seems a bit pretentious to me.
     
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  2. EnderAKH

    EnderAKH Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    I respectfully disagree. In the first three movies, the Jedi were dead after having been killed off, so you have one old Jedi and one who is basically a trainee. Lucas's intention in the prequels was to show the Jedi at the height of their influence and abilities, which yes, includes lightsaber use among many other Jedi powers.
     
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  3. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So you really think there wasn’t a tiny bit of fan service in having Obi-wan fight a boba fett stand in? Or a fight with a robot lizard who could use four lightsabers at once? Or having anakin duel wielding lightsabers?

    Vader and Luke were two strong Jedi, but ROTJ still kept the lightsaber combat relatively subdued. That’s because the conflict between those characters was based around something deeper than twirling glow sticks. Luke and Vader actually spend as much time talking as fighting. No need to have them swinging over lava fields or swinging their lightsabers as fast as possible. Again, lightsabers were just swords in the OT. They weren’t some kind of super weapon that cut through anything like butter.

    But see, this is all proving my point. Just throw in some gratuitous lightsaber duels and people will eat that **** up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  4. EnderAKH

    EnderAKH Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    But that's the point... they were using them so much because they had become arrogant, that they could handle anything with their Jedi abilities. And that arrogance ultimately was their downfall, they couldn't see what Palpatine was doing right under their noses either with the government or with Anakin. I mean, I am no lover of the prequels but this was all spelled out pretty clearly, and was the story reason that they used their abilities so much. I honestly don't think George Lucas gives a flying fig what the fans want, and he has said as much. He just wants to tell his stories his way.
     
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  5. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Wasn’t their downfall just incredible stupidity?

    I think TPM was the way Lucas wanted to tell his story. It was after that movie was poorly received that he started relying more and more on over the top lightsaber duels.

    Even if there’s a story reason for why they used their lightsabers all the time, those fights didn’t have to be so ridiculous. The fight between Anakin and Dooku at the start of ROTS works fine because it’s one of the few with some story/character conflict. It doesn’t need to be buoyed up by any over the top action.
     
  6. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think the crazy fights have to do with fan service. I think that's what Lucas wanted to make all along, and didn't have the budget or effects to do so earlier.
     
  7. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Luke and Vader's final duel could have been way longer and more complex if it needed to be, but it didn't. It relied on the emotion of the characters and their conflicting motivations. Again, the characters spoke to each other as much or more than they fought. Lightsabers were the least important part of their conflict.

    Or maybe he wanted to break that fight up with Luke riding around on a giant lizard and didn't have the budget. We'll never know...
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed to an extent. The one point I will put against that use of lightsabers is the fact that they go overlong.
     
  9. EnderAKH

    EnderAKH Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    That's fair. Maybe Lucas looked at it as less time the actors would come looking to him for acting direction. ;)
     
  10. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And less time writing Padme/Anakin scenes :barf:
     
  11. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's the sad thing - Lucas got rid of most issues that TPM had by the time AOTC came around. And instead he replaced them with whole new issues!
     
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  12. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think he just set his sights lower. I've always felt TPM is the best and worst of the sequels. Thinking about it, I feel about TPM the same as I feel about TLJ...
     
  13. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't know about that. The phantom menace was a very confused movie. It seemed to be aimed at children, but also with a complex political plot involving the taxation of trade routes... is that aiming high?
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think he had his sights set higher than many give him credit for. Despite the taxation story being a bit confused line it was a concept that was pretty new to the Star Wars universe and I think invited more creative storytelling for EU materials.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, who doesn't love a good yarn about taxation of trade routes?

    ...I said a good yarn...
     
  16. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Palpatine's plot is certainly the strong point of the whole trilogy, and nothing even comes close. Well perhaps the level of swordsmanship they got the actors up to - if you watch the extras you will see that Hayden was stunningly fast with the plastic light sabre.

    Anyway, Palpatine's story is certainly a highlight. Everything around it was pretty weak though, and the weakest of all in TPM.
     
  17. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think it's complex as much as not terribly well thought out, much like the 'political' storylines later on. I'm not saying TPM is good, just like I don't think TLJ is good.

    But TPM at least doesn't rely as much on fight scenes and seems to focus more on characters and dialogue. In terms of plot and pacing, it feels more like a traditional movie. My whole point with over-the-top lightsaber combat is that I feel it's mainly there to make up for the lack of story and quality of dialogue. The dialogue isn't great in TPM, but it's a masterpiece compared to many of the scenes in AOTC and ROTS.

    I think TLJ and TPM tried to tell an original story, but didn't do it very well. I think TFA took the easy route by closely following ANH, and that AOTC and ROTS took the easy route by relying on lightsaber duels. I'd probably rather watch TFA or ROTS than TPM or TLJ, but only in the same way I'd rather eat junk food than a good meal badly made.

    I don't know. Palpatine's plots tend to rely on everyone else being incredibly stupid.
     
  18. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you simplify his long term plot it comes down to never ending, un-winnable conflict, leading to constant escalation, with gradual increases in his power.I really enjoyed seeing it unfold. I think the sense that stupidity was required comes from the fact that the movies don't convey the passage of time too well (many years passed between TPM and ROTS).

    Palpatine showed extreme patience in letting his plot develop. Now his plot to turn Anakin did seem rather half baked lol
     
  19. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It was nicely paced. There's definitely a sense of gradual storytelling which doesn't come across with other parts of the trilogy. I just feel it wasn't particularly devious. The Jedi must have been dumber than a bag of rocks to not figure things out.

    Honestly, I think Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side for a mug with 'Jedi Master' on the side.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ..do they make those? And is it evil simply to ask?