The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!
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And get back to the Kira lovingDenise Crosby a better actress than Nana Visitor?! Okay, we're never gonna be on the same page, so let's just agree to disagree.
Well, I LOVE (*cough, cough-) that Kira showed (to me) the most growth of anyone in the series. Events that we were able to experience with her throughout the series turned a (yes) angry, broken woman into a stable leader and friend who was actually at peace with her life.
The moment Kira picks up Sisko's baseball in the last episode to me is when she fully arrived at the new, stronger, more content Kira. She had "grown up" over those 7 years. She never really had a childhood as most children do. She grew up with war. Anger was all she knew. Violence and loudness were her only means of effective communication in her mind. She was a child in a woman's body who was constantly being confronted with her violent past, surrounded by her enemies, and living on an enemy base. Wow!
And over time (and it took time), she learned that some of the people around her actually loved her, and some of her "enemies" actually had hearts and consciences, and she would even come to think of one of her enemies as a father-like figure, another as a sister or daughter, and finally another as a hero. She even thought she was the enemy at one point. That's heavy stuff.
She faced a lot. Over 7 years, this hardened woman who lost her childhood to war realized she had a family (the crew). She had a home (DS9). She found true love (Odo). She was a mother (as a surrogate for the O'Briens, a mother-figure to Zyal, and a mother-figure to Jake in the final scene of the series). She was able to loosen up and lighten up (thanks to Jadzia). She was able to fully embrace her faith even more than before (thanks to the Emissary). And in the final episode when she looks around and throws that baseball up in the air and catches it, she is now the matriarch. She has grown up. This was now her "tribe" as Nana often describes it. The moment still gives me chills just thinking about it.
Indeed, Nana as "Kira" showed us a wide range of emotion over the 7 years of the series, and the most amazing arc of any Trek character ever. Just take a look at the video I posted up the thread. You'll see moments of total joy, sadness, vulnerability, disbelief, regret, pity, disappointment, pride, peace, frustration, deceit, passion, deep thought, wonder, grief, love, hate, exhilaration, and yes, anger, and that's without dialogue. Body language alone. In fact, forget body language -- she could do all of that with her eyes alone! What a character! What an actress!
Here's to Kira Nerys! Here's to Nana Visitor! Much love to both!
The moment Kira picks up Sisko's baseball in the last episode to me is when she fully arrived at the new, stronger, more content Kira. She had "grown up" over those 7 years. She never really had a childhood as most children do. She grew up with war. Anger was all she knew. Violence and loudness were her only means of effective communication in her mind. She was a child in a woman's body who was constantly being confronted with her violent past, surrounded by her enemies, and living on an enemy base. Wow!
And over time (and it took time), she learned that some of the people around her actually loved her, and some of her "enemies" actually had hearts and consciences, and she would even come to think of one of her enemies as a father-like figure, another as a sister or daughter, and finally another as a hero. She even thought she was the enemy at one point. That's heavy stuff.
She faced a lot. Over 7 years, this hardened woman who lost her childhood to war realized she had a family (the crew). She had a home (DS9). She found true love (Odo). She was a mother (as a surrogate for the O'Briens, a mother-figure to Zyal, and a mother-figure to Jake in the final scene of the series). She was able to loosen up and lighten up (thanks to Jadzia). She was able to fully embrace her faith even more than before (thanks to the Emissary). And in the final episode when she looks around and throws that baseball up in the air and catches it, she is now the matriarch. She has grown up. This was now her "tribe" as Nana often describes it. The moment still gives me chills just thinking about it.
Indeed, Nana as "Kira" showed us a wide range of emotion over the 7 years of the series, and the most amazing arc of any Trek character ever. Just take a look at the video I posted up the thread. You'll see moments of total joy, sadness, vulnerability, disbelief, regret, pity, disappointment, pride, peace, frustration, deceit, passion, deep thought, wonder, grief, love, hate, exhilaration, and yes, anger, and that's without dialogue. Body language alone. In fact, forget body language -- she could do all of that with her eyes alone! What a character! What an actress!
Here's to Kira Nerys! Here's to Nana Visitor! Much love to both!
Haven't we already had this "people would have PTSD because I say so" conversation before? It seems awfully familiar.
Denise Crosby a better actress than Nana Visitor?! Okay, we're never gonna be on the same page, so let's just agree to disagree.
No, people should have PSTD because they've been thru a trauma. I know people like Kira who have never had any serious traumas, and are just ill tempered by nature.
It's ok though, you guys are seeing Kira through your Niner glasses. And I'm not saying Denise Crosby is better, but she had what, half a season to develop, along with a clunky show that itself took 3 seasons to mature?
Nana Visitor had 7 seasons to develop, and she's the same person. I don't get where the big change is for her. Even as far back as Duet (a 1st season episode) she already sympathized with Cardassians that were against the occupation, so you can't tell me that was one of her changes.
Please elaborate on what was.
^ PTSD isn't something you automatically develop because you've experienced something traumatic, it's a psychological condition that some people that have been through traumatic experiences develop because their brain can't figure out how to deal with an intense, previously unfamiliar situations. Kira does just fine dealing with her anger and leading a productive life, the worst she ever gets is a reminder from the boss to use her inside voice.
I don't think there's any question that her experiences, as she relates them on screen couldn't be considered traumatic. Come on, she killed people! That's something that many of us have to deal with as a reality and necessity. Some do well with it, some don't. Either way, it definitely AFFECTS you unless you're a sociopath.
Kira's anger becomes more controlled between season 1 and season 2, because Sisko basically tells her that in order to perform her function as Bajor's liason, she's gonna have to tone the attitude down a little. If you really never noticed the multiple on screen scenes where Sisko has this conversation with her, I'll find them and list them.
I don't think there's any question that her experiences, as she relates them on screen couldn't be considered traumatic. Come on, she killed people! That's something that many of us have to deal with as a reality and necessity. Some do well with it, some don't. Either way, it definitely AFFECTS you unless you're a sociopath.
Kira's anger becomes more controlled between season 1 and season 2, because Sisko basically tells her that in order to perform her function as Bajor's liason, she's gonna have to tone the attitude down a little. If you really never noticed the multiple on screen scenes where Sisko has this conversation with her, I'll find them and list them.
Why bother? This isn't an issue where one side convinces the other. We all have our own opinions, which is as it should be.
You don't have to be sorry. Your opinion is your own to own.
I think the biggest problem with her is that she shows no vulnerability whatsoever. All her supposed traumas feel superficial with her acting.
I'm not really sure how much the writing or directing had to do with that.
But characters like Quark and Odo show vulnerabilities in spades! They really know how to create nuance in their acting abilities.
Kira had none, Jadzia had none, and Sisko only had a little.
Quark had tons, Odo a bit less, and Garak/Dukat sure hammed up their roles. Maybe that's why these characters tend to be the ones people usually consider the best ones.
I disagree. Visitor did a great job with one of my favorite characters in Star Trek.
She has a strength, shown through in an episode like Necessary Evil, that allows her to see the Occupation as a part of her past. She does have moments she talks about its (With Dax in Bloodoath, with Ziyal in Return to Grace) effects on her. But the majority of the time, that is just something in her past. People sometimes get past their traumas. I loved her in Second Skin where she was forced to confront herself as a Cardassian agent. Her racism gets a long look in the mirror. It shatters her sense-of-self. Good episode. She changed over the years to come to terms with herself and the hate she had for Cardassians. She's what the Federation preached in the beginning of the show--You must learn to get past the Occupation.
Dub, all your little pictorial jabs point to things that came across thru the script, not in the way Nana Visitor acts.
Ironic since yesterday I saw "wrongs darker than death or night" and I think this is the first time I see this episode.
The story was stellar! I'm going to say, at this time, this is probably my favorite episode of the series so far.
It's clear the writers truly had a grasp of the "gray area" topics they so clearly showed us with an episode like this one.
However, Nana, the poor dear was over her head. She got out acted by a guest star playing her mother of all things. I truly felt that woman's despair, and eventual realization that "playing by the rules" was truly the way to go to save herself and her family.
I did not get the same reaction with Nana's typical "I'm angry angry angry Kira" method of acting.
And yes, I think you are seeing her thru Niner lenses. So far I think the series is quite good, and I realize now that a lot of the flak it got was due to the poor acting of several main characters, including Nana Visitor. Only Niner apologists could defend it with a straight face.
Ironic since yesterday I saw "wrongs darker than death or night" and I think this is the first time I see this episode.
The story was stellar! I'm going to say, at this time, this is probably my favorite episode of the series so far.
It's clear the writers truly had a grasp of the "gray area" topics they so clearly showed us with an episode like this one.
However, Nana, the poor dear was over her head. She got out acted by a guest star playing her mother of all things. I truly felt that woman's despair, and eventual realization that "playing by the rules" was truly the way to go to save herself and her family.
I did not get the same reaction with Nana's typical "I'm angry angry angry Kira" method of acting.
And yes, I think you are seeing her thru Niner lenses. So far I think the series is quite good, and I realize now that a lot of the flak it got was due to the poor acting of several main characters, including Nana Visitor. Only Niner apologists could defend it with a straight face.
For whatever it's worth I totally adore Nana; as a person she's just lovely and as a performer...well, she's actually my favourite actor of all time. So underrated it's unreal. Those eyes, my God...she can say more with just a look than 20 pages of dialogue ever could. Which is one of the many many reasons why Kira is and always will be my fave Trek character.
And so to see a thread like this, which should be celebrating a really awesome and remarkable talent who doesn't get anywhere near as much appreciation as she deserves, just constantly being dragged back to this sour note is really...well, depressing.
GalaxyX, if you don't like her...why do you keep coming back to this thread? Again and again?
Anger 24/7:
All I can see there is The Most Beautiful Smile In The Whole Entire World. Think we might have to call 'not true' on the Angry 24/7 front...
And so to see a thread like this, which should be celebrating a really awesome and remarkable talent who doesn't get anywhere near as much appreciation as she deserves, just constantly being dragged back to this sour note is really...well, depressing.
GalaxyX, if you don't like her...why do you keep coming back to this thread? Again and again?
Anger 24/7:
All I can see there is The Most Beautiful Smile In The Whole Entire World. Think we might have to call 'not true' on the Angry 24/7 front...
Well angry 24/7 is an exaggeration I admit.
It's more like "Normal Kira (as seen in your smilin' shots above) with a horrible temper tantrum. Get in her way, and temper tantrum explodes"
I suppose if you want to interpret that as what the character should be like based on her past life experiences, you're free to do so I guess.
It's more like "Normal Kira (as seen in your smilin' shots above) with a horrible temper tantrum. Get in her way, and temper tantrum explodes"
I suppose if you want to interpret that as what the character should be like based on her past life experiences, you're free to do so I guess.
Says the guy who thinks nuUhura is a play on feminist ideas.
Okay, I just recently joined these boards, and when I saw that there was a Kira Nerys Love Thread I practically jumped with glee. Kira is my favorite DS9 character, and one of my all-time favorite characters across all Treks. I am also a big fan of Nana Visitor--I'm going to Star Trek Las Vegas in August, where I'll get to meet her, which I am TOTALLY STOKED about.
I seem to have wandered in here in the middle of a debate about Nana's acting abilities, which...well, I think it's pretty clear which side I'm on. [clutches my Kira poster to my chest]
I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, and I'm not going to tell anyone not to express themselves, but darn if it isn't a bit of a downer to see in the Kira love thread.
SO, fellow Kira lovers. In an effort to change the subject, I'll pose a question for you all: what's your favorite Kira episode?
I seem to have wandered in here in the middle of a debate about Nana's acting abilities, which...well, I think it's pretty clear which side I'm on. [clutches my Kira poster to my chest]
I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, and I'm not going to tell anyone not to express themselves, but darn if it isn't a bit of a downer to see in the Kira love thread.
SO, fellow Kira lovers. In an effort to change the subject, I'll pose a question for you all: what's your favorite Kira episode?
I wouldn't say it's a play on them. Rather it's the result of what society expects a "feminist" character to be like.
Kirk comes along and tries to pick her up with what was basically a "hi, what's your name?"
To which her response was "I'm surprised, for a hick who fucks farm animals you actually have some brains"
Kirk plays along with it like that's a natural response from a female. Old Uhura was beautiful sweet woman who I'd have tripped over myself to ask out on a date. New Uhura doesn't even have the excuse that Kirk is a womanizer (not a behavior I'm excusing at all BTW) because she didn't even know him yet.
I wonder how her first conversation with Spock went along. I can imagine it now:
Spock: "Hello cadet, I find it logical to tell you that you are a very attractive woman"
nuUhura: "Get away from me you pointy eared pig fucker"
Duet didn't end Kira's racism, it just got her to make the first step to think that every Cardassian isn't equally guilty.
Kira does have a lot of angry moments, but it's hardly her normal mode. After the first season she was kind and friendly to anybody she liked, not to mention loyal to a fault. She was just a bit touchy about the half century long enslavement of her entire race.
I suppose she didn't have a lot of vulnerable moments but she was the most emotionally present character. Most of the characters put their emotions behind some kind of veneer, such as Jadzia's sarcasm, or Odo's quiet dignity, Kira just had them on the surface. To me, that made her the most fun to watch other than Quark.
Kira does have a lot of angry moments, but it's hardly her normal mode. After the first season she was kind and friendly to anybody she liked, not to mention loyal to a fault. She was just a bit touchy about the half century long enslavement of her entire race.
I suppose she didn't have a lot of vulnerable moments but she was the most emotionally present character. Most of the characters put their emotions behind some kind of veneer, such as Jadzia's sarcasm, or Odo's quiet dignity, Kira just had them on the surface. To me, that made her the most fun to watch other than Quark.
Welcome exoplanetary! Thanks for bringing your LOVE to this thread! I'd love to meet her someday too. I'm jealous! I hear she's one of the nicest Trek stars at the conventions. what's your favorite Kira episode?
I think my favorite is "Second Skin." I said this in an older thread - seeing Kira as a Cardassian was one of the most shocking things to witness. And it was so memorable. Her acting in this episode was awesome. I felt her pain as the seeds of doubt grew within her (and within me as a viewer) as to her true race. I only wish they left the ending ambiguous as originally intended...is Kira really a Bajoran or Cardassian? Of course, she would choose Bajoran and live as Bajoran, but it would have been interesting to just leave the question of her real identity open. Of course, Garak is also in this episode and he has some great lines as usual! Anyway, I so love this episode. And it was wonderful on my rewatch as well, because my wife who was watching for the first time gasped out loud when she saw Kira as a Cardassian, which was great fun for me to witness!
I'll put my vote in for Rocks and Shoals: the complete unmaking of the character with excellent moments of self-reflection.
Feel the hate!
You're both in for a real treat. Not only is she easily one of the nicest convention guests of all, but she really is one of the nicest human beings you're ever going to find on this Earth. I've seen her at 5 events now since 2007, and no matter who else is there that I've not met before seeing her again is always the highlight of the convention. There's nothing nicer than seeing her face light up, hearing her cry "Hello you!" and getting a big hug. Or three.
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