The Kira Nerys LOVE thread!
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I would disagree with that comparison. I love Ro Laren but her Bajoran-ness was in no way essential to her character. She could have been a member of some other race and still been basically the same character. Kira couldn't have been any other race than Bajoran and still been Kira.
JirinPanthosa said:
I will respectfully agree to disagree, although you make a point. We could easily rehash the 'chicken or the egg' discussion on this one. Maybe a topic for another thread
I personally love both characters and I'm very happy we got both in Trek. Too bad they didn't try to use Ro more in TNG and their movies (or if they tried, too bad she didn't accept the offer). I know there was a possibility for Ro to fill the role that eventually became Kira. But personally, I'm thrilled the stars aligned the way they did and we had Kira for 7 seasons!
Kira for me just reflects what makes DS9 the best of the franchise. She is deeper, more conflicted and more realistic than other characters.
I love watching her evolve. She beings as an angry, perhaps even angsty, soldier who no longer has a clear enemy. Watching her grow and fight her own prejudices [Federation and, particularly, Cardassian] was fascinating and very well done. Her friendship and respect for Sisko, romance with Odo and gradual acquisition of experience and knowledge just made me love her.
I also loved her sense of humour.
I MUST say though: Nana Visitor really made the character. It could have been a cliche, trivial mess in another actresses hands. Nana was powerful and just spot-on most of the time.
Also one final note. To this day, I think Nana Visitor [and thus Kira] probably has the nicest smile of any woman I have ever seen. Its just soooo warm and feminine and...pretty. Does anyone else know what I mean? She could tell me she just accidentally destroyed my car....then smile and I'd be cool with it.
I love watching her evolve. She beings as an angry, perhaps even angsty, soldier who no longer has a clear enemy. Watching her grow and fight her own prejudices [Federation and, particularly, Cardassian] was fascinating and very well done. Her friendship and respect for Sisko, romance with Odo and gradual acquisition of experience and knowledge just made me love her.
I also loved her sense of humour.
I MUST say though: Nana Visitor really made the character. It could have been a cliche, trivial mess in another actresses hands. Nana was powerful and just spot-on most of the time.
Also one final note. To this day, I think Nana Visitor [and thus Kira] probably has the nicest smile of any woman I have ever seen. Its just soooo warm and feminine and...pretty. Does anyone else know what I mean? She could tell me she just accidentally destroyed my car....then smile and I'd be cool with it.
She was so angry at first. She'd been fighting for freedom for so long, so that was all we knew when we first see her. Her worries of Starfleet being there to pick at whatever mess the Cardassians had left, even if it came across as somewhat one note.
I loved how much she developed though. Eventually she came to terms with Sisko, the Cardassians, and then herself. Such complexity. And simply stunning too!
Kira is my favourite female Star Trek character hands down, and then in my DS9 top 3 with Odo and Garak.
I loved how much she developed though. Eventually she came to terms with Sisko, the Cardassians, and then herself. Such complexity. And simply stunning too!
Kira is my favourite female Star Trek character hands down, and then in my DS9 top 3 with Odo and Garak.
It's the actress' fault. Nana Visitor just can't act. Sorry guys.
I've been rewatching the entire series, and Jadzia is the only other character I can think of that is worse than her.
I'm currently in the middle of Season 6, and he acting has only mildly improved from the 1st Season.
You don't have to be sorry. Your opinion is your own to own.
You don't have to be sorry. Your opinion is your own to own.
I think the biggest problem with her is that she shows no vulnerability whatsoever. All her supposed traumas feel superficial with her acting.
I'm not really sure how much the writing or directing had to do with that.
But characters like Quark and Odo show vulnerabilities in spades! They really know how to create nuance in their acting abilities.
Kira had none, Jadzia had none, and Sisko only had a little.
Quark had tons, Odo a bit less, and Garak/Dukat sure hammed up their roles. Maybe that's why these characters tend to be the ones people usually consider the best ones.
^Is vulnerability the only worthwhile bit of nuance? Certainty there are other emotions?
I wouldn't say Visiter was the best actress, but she showed more range than Sirtis, McFadden, Dawson, Park, Blalock and Seldana. Her performance never seemed phoned in, like Siddig, Wang or Beltran. She couldn't turn on a dime or be funny like Ryan, but she was the closest Trek has had to a romantic lead. Few actors have had the physical presence of Visitor, who always looked far stronger and aggressive than in real life. And her character developed, even over the course of several episodes, like the six episode arc. If one of those emotions was not vulnerability, there was still so much more.
I wouldn't say Visiter was the best actress, but she showed more range than Sirtis, McFadden, Dawson, Park, Blalock and Seldana. Her performance never seemed phoned in, like Siddig, Wang or Beltran. She couldn't turn on a dime or be funny like Ryan, but she was the closest Trek has had to a romantic lead. Few actors have had the physical presence of Visitor, who always looked far stronger and aggressive than in real life. And her character developed, even over the course of several episodes, like the six episode arc. If one of those emotions was not vulnerability, there was still so much more.
You don't have to be sorry. Your opinion is your own to own.
I'm pretty sure he has to be sorry since he's clearly wrong.
I think Sirtis wasn't a good actress either, but she really wasn't given much of a role. Honestly I used to hate her character, but as I matured, I started hating the character less and feeling sorry for the actress. She was just put in a horribly written role that was completely unnecessary.
I don't know if Gates was capable of more range than what we saw, but IMO she played her part exactly as it should have been: A family doctor who genuinely cared about he patients, and was willing to argue with stupid rules when her patient's lives were at stake. That's what the role asked of her, and she did it beautifully.
No way in hell did you just mock Dawson's acting. She played her struggle to keep her two natures together (human and klingon), with just the right amount of anger, and she showed her vulnerability in exactly the right amounts when needed! If you remember the episode where the Vidiians split her human and klingon sides, she played her human side with just the right amount of fear and uncertainty, and she played the klingon side with just the right amount of confidence, brashness, and anger we know the klingons have. She played her attraction to Paris and her fear of admitting to herself and to him that it was there to near perfection! (Too bad Robert Duncan McNeill didn't have the same range). She might be my favourite Voyager actress.
Linda Park did a good job with what she was given. She was strong, confident, and showed her vulnerabilities decently I think (like when she was afraid she couldn't cut it on the ship). The rest of the show was shit, but she wasn't part of what what hurting the show.
Zoe Saldana plays her character as JJ Abram's wife told her to play it, as the typical over the top feminist bitch that people think a "strong woman" should be like. Absolutely no range other than "don't fuck with me" attitude, and absolutely no chemistry with Zachary Quinto.
Nana Visitor only has one range: "Angry 24/7" and there's not even subtle layers of anger. Her way of showing she's "conflicted" is screaming a lot at people, and she had no chemistry with anyone on the show. Now I'll agree that she wasn't the only cardboard cutout, Bashir definitely (although I still like him character, he has his moments) as well as Miles. The only layered characters on DS9 were Quark, Odo, Garak and Dukat.
Calling Kira "Angry 24/7" just means you either didn't watch the whole series or your bias is too strong to see through.
I just finished watching Waltz today a few hours ago. I've been watching every single episode since Season 1 for the past couple of months.
Her on screen time consists mostly of "telling" us she's been thru a great trauma, usually by shouting it, even though I can't see it in her facial expressions or body language. I don't think I've seen her show any actual emotion, even something like bottled up anger. Usually she just goes "in your face" to whomever she is supposed to be angry at.
A real person who's undergone all the hardships and traumas she's supposed to have gone thru would probably have some kind of PTSD. I can't say I put of the blame solely on Nana Visitor for the lack of showing us a real conflicted character (as opposed to just paying lip service to one). The writers should have researched what people usually go thru with similar experiences and based the character and her stories on that information.
Calling Kira "Angry 24/7" just means you either didn't watch the whole series or your bias is too strong to see through.
Not to mention, she had different shades of anger. That's nuance.
Because she was only angry in The Circle? Necessary Evil? Crossover? Second Skin? Civil Defense? Defiant? Heart of Stone? Facets? Indiscretion? Starship Down? Our Man Bashir? ...
Because she was the same kind of angry at Damar as she was at Odo in Behind the Lines?
Calling Kira "Angry 24/7" just means you either didn't watch the whole series or your bias is too strong to see through.
Not to mention, she had different shades of anger. That's nuance.
Because she was only angry in The Circle? Necessary Evil? Crossover? Second Skin? Civil Defense? Defiant? Heart of Stone? Facets? Indiscretion? Starship Down? Our Man Bashir? ...
Because she was the same kind of angry at Damar as she was at Odo in Behind the Lines?
That's exactly my problem with her character. She doesn't portray a person who's dealing with trauma. Rather she just portrays a person who gets temper tantrums for no reason. We never see her dealing with any kind of sadness. Even when her father died, there were no tears, it was just a throwaway line "the Cardassians will pay" and that was it. She comes across as a woman who simply has a bad temper, nothing more, nothing less.
Actually I'm reminded of Denise Crosby as "Tasha Yar". Denise as an actress gets raked over the coals, and IMO unfairly. She was doing a decent job of portraying a conflicted character. She had a similar past to Kira, and the few episodes that dealt with it showed that she was angry about it, but her becoming part of the Federation and StarFleet was helping her to heal her wounds. I love her line in "EAP" when she defies Q with ""I grew up in a world that allowed things like this court! And it was people like these that saved me from it! This so-called court should get down on its knees to what Starfleet is! What it represents!"
Fucking awesome delivery! And throughout the first season you could see that she had a temper, but was learning to control it. And she showed vulnerability when needed. When she was in the "penalty box" she started to cry. Picard told her it was ok to cry, anyone feeling so powerless against an enemy, PARTICULARLY her who's already been in similar situations, was permitted to feel emotions about it.
I can't think of a single scene with Kira that even approaches that kind of awesomeness! I don't know if Denise was a better actress, or if it was just the writing/directing that came across as more solid. Kira on the other hand, is only mildly more mellow in the middle of the 6th season, than she was at the beginning of the first season.
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