The Gorn: A good enemy?

[Death Ray]

They were Zombies from day one.

I don't think they were. Zombies are a horde, and mindless. The Borg drones typically showed up a few at a time, enough to absorb information (via a few phaser blasts) and then adapt, at which point they usually ignored the humans and focused on taking over the ship's machinery. They didn't really become a horde of zombies until First Contact.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think they were. Zombies are a horde, and mindless. The Borg drones typically showed up a few at a time, enough to absorb information (via a few phaser blasts) and then adapt, at which point they usually ignored the humans and focused on taking over the ship's machinery. They didn't really become a horde of zombies until First Contact.

I see them as zombies. A devouring horde .

 

[The Wormhole]

The Borg drones typically showed up a few at a time, enough to absorb information (via a few phaser blasts) and then adapt, at which point they usually ignored the humans and focused on taking over the ship's machinery.

That was how the Borg behaved in Q Who, where the intent was they were more interested in technology than people. Part 1 of TBOBW pays lip service with everyone commenting how out of character it is for the Borg to be interested in Picard specifically, and later the act of turning Picard into a Borg is treated as something unique and unexpected. Then Part 2 abruptly starts talking about assimilation as though it's SOP for the Borg.

If anything, the most consistent thing about the Borg is that they always end up getting retconned in each of their appearances.

 

[Ithekro]

One wonders what sort of understanding the Federation and Gorn came to after Cestus III.

 

[Mudd]

One wonders what sort of understanding the Federation and Gorn came to after Cestus III.

Maybe none at all.

Maybe at some point in the future they just managed to agree to a line that they each stayed on their own side of. That seems to be the Gorn's main interest.

 

[Ithekro]

Maybe there is a weird Federation religious movement that dedicated their followers to preparing to be given to "the hunt". They either go and become breeding sacks for the Gorn, or they become the challenge for the Gorn. Survivor gets something, everyone else is good for the young.

Was it ever suggested that the Gorn also live in Pike City, Cestus III? Play baseball with the humans? We have seen a Gorn wedding in Lower Decks.

 

[Danny99]

Do not care for the ignoring of canon from TOS.

This was my first thought. I can't remember if Kirk hadn't seen a Gorn or was just shocked to see a Gorn.

Either way, they have been kept still somewhat mysterious. They are not pontificating about destroying them, they just come.

 

[Mudd]

I see them as zombies. A devouring horde .

Well, in FC they behaved exactly like zombies.

 

[Annorax849]

Maybe Cestus III was ceded to the UFP as reparations for the attack?

 

[Dar70]

Whether or not you like the Gorn as portrayed in SNW, does anyone really get the impression that Kurtzman/Goldsman could actually develop a complex villain, or something as innovative and still frightening (by ST standards) as the Borg?

Again: if you want to do schlock movie monsters as an enemy, fine, but at least be original. The Gorn are clearly Xenomorph knockoffs (in 2023, no less!) Oh... and the giant Gorn ship emerging, ID4-style, from a cloud... in a cloudless sky? Chef's kiss.

I don't have faith. Goldsman talks out of both sides of his mouth. I don't have much trust in the guy. There are some things they do right. But there are loads of things they really screwed up in season 2. This show could be and should be so much better. I like it more than Discovery but from everything to the horribly done Gorn, to constant TOS characters to silly eps like the cartoon crossover and musical. I'm beginning to lose any faith I had in the show last year. I'm not totally giving up mind you....but there have been a LOT of mis-steps. Things that I would have thought they learned from Discovery.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't have faith. Goldsman talks out of both sides of his mouth. I don't have much trust in the guy. There are some things they do right. But there are loads of things they really screwed up in season 2. This show could be and should be so much better. I like it more than Discovery but from everything to the horribly done Gorn, to constant TOS characters to silly eps like the cartoon crossover and musical. I'm beginning to lose any faith I had in the show last year. I'm not totally giving up mind you....but there have been a LOT of mis-steps. Things that I would have thought they learned from Discovery.

I thought the “silly” episodes were among the best in terms of moving the characters forward. Top notch writing in both.
Goldsman seems perfectly honest in what he’s doing and saying, Not seeing any talking out of “bothsides” of his mouth.
Curious what these DISCO style mistakes are. The shows seem to have little in common, other than being Star Trek.

 

[Death Ray]

I like it more than Discovery but from everything to the horribly done Gorn, to constant TOS characters to silly eps like the cartoon crossover and musical.

I skipped the musical episode, but enjoyed the LD crossover. Star Trek has never been above silliness in small doses. (Robin Hood TNG, anyone?)

 

[Dar70]

I skipped the musical episode, but enjoyed the LD crossover. Star Trek has never been above silliness in small doses. (Robin Hood TNG, anyone?)

I agree. But small doses....I get that we had comedy episodes in the past. Some I like, some i didnt. But I don't know. For me those two episodes did not work. I'm not sure which one I disliked more. I gave both 5's.

 

[Dar70]

I thought the “silly” episodes were among the best in terms of moving the characters forward. Top notch writing in both.
Goldsman seems perfectly honest in what he’s doing and saying, Not seeing any talking out of “bothsides” of his mouth.
Curious what these DISCO style mistakes are. The show seem to have little in common, other than being Star Trek.

I have talked about Discovery mistakes so many times I really don't want to rehash them. I just think both shows take their "creativity" to levels they should not. They mess with things just because they can. I get that some people don't care. That is cool. But for some of us it is off putting. I also realize that Star Trek has never been wholly consistent. But at least from TNG to ENT, they tried. SNW and Discovery has gone out of their way to change things so drastically to a point where they kinda change it back. (Klingons) I don't even want to mention the vomit inducing turbolift interior....

I just wished they did SNW as an actual chronicling of Pike and his crew and not a forced introduction of every TOS character. I didn't mind one Kirk appearance. But now they are making him a recurring guest.

I do like the more episodic nature of the show. Some things have indeed worked for me with the show. I just wish they had gone in another direction but they are pretty much doing exactly what I knew they would do.....
What's done is done now. At this point I'm fully expecting a fourth wall breaking episode In the style of She Hulk .......I just know it's coming because it will be so ground breaking and different for Trek....it is the way Akivas mind works.....also you have to challenge the actors you know....

 

[Nerys Myk]

I have talked about Discovery mistakes so many times I really don't want to rehash them. I just think both shows take their "creativity" to levels they should not. They mess with things just because they can. I get that some people don't care. That is cool. But for some of us it is off putting. I also realize that Star Trek has never been wholly consistent. But at least from TNG to ENT, they tried. SNW and Discovery has gone out of their way to change things so drastically to a point where they kinda change it back. (Klingons) I don't even want to mention the vomit inducing turbolift interior....

I just wished they did SNW as an actual chronicling of Pike and his crew and not a forced introduction of every TOS character. I didn't mind one Kirk appearance. But now they are making him a recurring guest.

I do like the more episodic nature of the show. Some things have indeed worked for me with the show. I just wish they had gone in another direction but they are pretty much doing exactly what I knew they would do.....
What's done is done now. At this point I'm fully expecting a fourth wall breaking episode In the style of She Hulk .......I just know it's coming because it will be so ground breaking and different for Trek....it is the way Akivas mind works.....also you have to challenge the actors you know....

Hmm, not seeing where SNW has introduced a change and then changed it back. They’ve dropped some of the changes DISCO made, Klingons are similar to the TNG style, no turbo lift rollercoaster and a few others. That’s a good thing right? We want stuff closer to TNG et al.
We’re still seeing a chronicle of Pike’s crew. Kirk or Scotty showing up doesn’t change that, any more than Barkley or O’Brien popping into TNG changed it from chronicling “Picard’s crew”.
Any other “DISCO” mistakes? Not the one DISCO made, the ones that SNW has made along the same lines
Isn’t the other direction from episodic an arc based show? And what are they “doing” again? Updating things? Yes, that was always going to happen.
Not seeing a breaking the fourth wall episode coming, Not seeing Goldsman doing that anytime soon, no matter how his mind works. She-Hulk has a long history of breaking the fourth wall, Star Trek not so much. Goldsman, for all the “changes”, is probably more a Trek purist no matter what many may think. He’s a guy who grew up in the Sixties and Seventies and TOS was a “comforting” part of his childhood

 

[Sci]

I have talked about Discovery mistakes so many times I really don't want to rehash them. I just think both shows take their "creativity" to levels they should not.

Creativity is good, my friend.

They mess with things just because they can.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Variety and innovation are what keep a franchise alive.

I also realize that Star Trek has never been wholly consistent. But at least from TNG to ENT, they tried. SNW and Discovery has gone out of their way to change things so drastically

That's what people used to say about ENT.

to a point where they kinda change it back. (Klingons)

Yeah, I think it's clear that the people running SNW have different aesthetics from the people running DIS when they decided on the Klingon makeup for DIS S1. I think there's nothing wrong with experimenting creativity and deciding that sometimes the things you tried didn't work as well as what you had before. Personally I like the SNW style but hope we see the occasional DIS-style Klingon mixed in with the SNW style.

I don't even want to mention the vomit inducing turbolift interior....

Is that really important enough to weigh down the entire series? Especially the 32nd Century one, since we already know from ENT that ships in the 29th+ Centuries can be bigger on the interior than their exterior?

I just wished they did SNW as an actual chronicling of Pike and his crew and not a forced introduction of every TOS character. I didn't mind one Kirk appearance. But now they are making him a recurring guest.

There is nothing wrong with gradually introducing and incorporating TOS characters into a direct TOS prequel that's literally set on the same ship.

At this point I'm fully expecting a fourth wall breaking episode In the style of She Hulk .......

What's wrong with that?

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I think the unspoken deficit is what we can call the "Species 8947 issue". It's tough to have emotional encounters with gigantic CGI creatures. I invite SNW to try, but I sure would like a new race with rubber appliances on their noses. The Gorn are good for action and horror, but not moral conundrums or political issues.

Sorry who are species 8947? Do you mean species 8472?

 

[Dar70]

Creativity is good, my friend.



And there is nothing wrong with that. Variety and innovation are what keep a franchise alive.



That's what people used to say about ENT.



Yeah, I think it's clear that the people running SNW have different aesthetics from the people running DIS when they decided on the Klingon makeup for DIS S1. I think there's nothing wrong with experimenting creativity and deciding that sometimes the things you tried didn't work as well as what you had before. Personally I like the SNW style but hope we see the occasional DIS-style Klingon mixed in with the SNW style.



Is that really important enough to weigh down the entire series? Especially the 32nd Century one, since we already know from ENT that ships in the 29th+ Centuries can be bigger on the interior than their exterior?



There is nothing wrong with gradually introducing and incorporating TOS characters into a direct TOS prequel that's literally set on the same ship.



What's wrong with that?

Enterprise was throughly shredded around here back in the day. I liked it immediately and never thought it had really changed things. I remember the outcry about the ship just because it wasn't shown on TMP observation wall. lol It was silly then and even sillier on retrospect.

They haven't gradually introduced characters from TOS. We got 5 the first episode. Not counting Pike,Spock and Number one because they kinda have to be there. We got Uhura, Chapel, T'Pring M'Benga and Sam Kirk all in the first episode and and then Kirk and Scotty.

The Interior of the Turbolift is just not just some 32nd century refit add-on. The Pikeprise has it as well. So it's something that was not thought out at all and just done for the "kewl" factor. If Starfleet has had this technology all this time, why make a turbolift with a bunch of empty space???

As for fourth Wall breaking. It can be used to good effect for narration purposes. House of cards is a good example of this. But if they pull stupid crap like I have seen in Deadpool and worse what I seen in She Hulk. I will probably ditch the show pretty quick at that point. (Yes I'm aware that the comics have done it for years, but I never liked it when I read them as a kid. Always pulls me out of the story....)

I don't mind innovation. The problem is they really are not innovating. Just taking things from other shows. Which is ok to a degree.

Again I'm not all down on the show. I like a lot of what I have seen. I just think it could have been much better.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't mind innovation. The problem is they really are not innovating. Just taking things from other shows. Which is ok to a degree.

So, you’re saying it’s Star Trek?

 

[Dar70]

So, you’re saying it’s Star Trek?

Never said it wasn't...lol