Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[The Nth Doctor]

While it was expected that John Walker was going to go nuts, I wish the trigger point didn't have to be the death of Lemar Hoskins. Not just the lost of a potentially great character (I don't know Battlestar beyond this show), but the image of killing a Black man to accelerate a white man's insanity isn't a good one. I know there's more to it than that but on the surface it doesn't look good.

That said Walker has leaped well over the line now that the world has the image of Captain America's bloody image burned in their minds. There's no coming back from that. The question is just how badly will react to the world seeing him this way.

Something I've been meaning to point out is how we repeatedly see Walker's Captain America has a gun drawn during every mission we've seen him on. That stands out to me because Steve Rogers only used a gun during WWII. In the modern day world, he only used his shield, his fists, and his wits. Not when facing terrorists in Nigeria, not when facing robotic drones in Sokovia, not even when facing mindless drones in NYC and Wakanda. That alone is a stark contrast between him and Walker.

I didn't expect to see Wakanda on this show so I especially loved seeing the flashback of Bucky and Ayo testing whether Bucky was properly freed from the Hydra programming. Not only was that a quick way of establishing the history between the two of them, but it also showed that such a test actually happened. While it wasn't necessary to show such a moment, it is something that has sat in the back of my head for the last few years so I'm happy to see it directly addressed.

Speaking of Wakanda, I really loved seeing Ayo and the other two Dora Milaje wipe the floor with Walker and Hoskins. However, it broke my heart seeing Ayo feeling betrayed by Bucky stepping in to prevent bloodshed. I wasn't surprised she was able to quickly disable and literally disarm Bucky, but I was a little surprised that Bucky didn't see that coming. I also myself hating Walker even more (which I didn't think was possible) with his whiny racist, sexist quip about how the Dora Mileje "weren't even Super Soldiers."

I really liked how Sam tried to reach out to Karli and express sympathy for her cause, if not her methods. I doubt they would've actually come to reasonable terms before Walker came rushing in like a mad bull and betraying Sam's trust, but I'm glad Sam at least got the opportunity to try to reach out. That helps demonstrate the complexity of Karli's situation but she doesn't help her cause by bombing GRC and killing innocent people or threatening Sam's family.

Power Broker watch: It still could go either way but the show really does want us to think it could be Sharon.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Steve actually used a gun once in modern times.
During the scene on the helicarrier in The Avengers, when he and Tony try to keep it from falling to the ground.
He fought off some attackers with a a machine Pistole or something I believe.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Steve actually used a gun once in modern times.
During the scene on the helicarrier in The Avengers, when he and Tony try to keep it from falling to the ground.
He fought off some attackers with a a machine Pistole or something I believe.

Okay, I forgot that instance but it was an improvised moment. The point remains he didn't go into any of his modern missions wielding a gun.

 

[FPAlpha]

"You are free"

That was so heartbreaking seeing Bucky breaking down when realizes the Winter Soldier has no hold over him anymore, decades of pain gone. What a way to start this awesome episode and what a way to end it.

As has been said it was inevitable that Walker would lose it at some point, you didn't need to be Sherlock Holmes to see it coming even if you are unfamiliar with the comics. His downward spiral is understandable though - at every turn since he put on the uniform and given the shield he failed. First fight and he gets his ass handed to him by supersoldiers. Can be explained with "they're supersoldiers - chances of winning were slim". His investigation runs into dead end after dead end while Sam and Bucky are making progress.

Now he gets his ass handed to him by bald women with friggin's spears and one of them even takes his shield for a moment. Walker never stood a chance in that high powered superhero world but how he reacts and when he finally snaps is still inexcusable. One thing for sure will happen - he is done being Captain America and wearing that shield after he killed a beaten man in cold blood in a public place - the US government will not be able to explain that away and this could open up the way for Sam to regain the shield once he gets over himself.

Walker though, now suped up, could become a villain - we will see.

Zemo being Zemo, no surprise there and i hope to god Sam and Bucky have a contingency plan for the inevitable betrayal. Zemo ist just leagues better at this whole subterfuge game, if Natasha were still alive this could be one hell of a match.

Best episode yet and things are only heating up.

I was cheering for Walker at the end. They deserved it.
I know they are trying to show that the new Cap is unstable but there have been Captain America stories where Steve has gone all Batman as well.

Absolutely not - many of the international problems the US has stem from the fact how people wearing its flag, i.e. their soldiers, behaved in foreign country. Associating that flag with certain behaviour is why the US is so intensely hated in parts of the world. Now Walker, while practically wearing a flag, kills a man in the age of cell phone cameras and social media. The blood on the shield wouldn't have time to dry before videos of this were all over the Internet.

He failed as a symbol and a soldier and it will have great consequences.

 

[Oso Blanco]

While it was expected that John Walker was going to go nuts, I wish the trigger point didn't have to be the death of Lamarr Hoskins. Not just the lost of a potentially great character (I don't know Battlestar beyond this show), but the image of killing a Black man to accelerate a white man's insanity isn't a good one. I know there's more to it than that but on the surface it doesn't look good.

The thought you mentioned above never ocurred to me once, and I really wish people would stop reducing other people to the color of their skin. And yes ... I also would have liked to see more of Lemar Hoskins/Battlestar. He seemed to be John Walker's conscience, and it would have been interesting to see how their friendship would have developed, once John Walker turned to the dark side.

I also myself hating Walker even more (which I didn't think was possible) with his whiny racist, sexist quip about how the Dora Mileje "weren't even Super Soldiers."

How was that racist or sexist? He just couldn't believe that he got his ass handed to him by people who weren't super soldiers. It appears that he was arrogant enough to think a normal (unenhanced) human being could never be capable of something like that. And if they can wipe the floor with his ass, imagine what the super soldiers could do! It was the moment he realised that he is no Steve Rogers and that he would never last without being a super soldier himself.

 

[thribs]

Best scene was when they were fighting the Wakandan people and Zemo was just drinking throughout it.

 

[FreezeC77]

Something I've been meaning to point out is how we repeatedly see Walker's Captain America has a gun drawn during every mission we've seen him on. That stands out to me because Steve Rogers only used a gun during WWII. In the modern day world, he only used his shield, his fists, and his wits. Not when facing terrorists in Nigeria, not when facing robotic drones in Sokovia, not even when facing mindless drones in NYC and Wakanda. That alone is a stark contrast between him and Walker.

John Walker with a gun as Captain America was one of the main rebranding type images of his run as Captain America in the comics. I think one of the interviews with the comic runner of Captain America during that run had an issue a few months before having John Walker take over as Captain America where Steve Rogers did fire a gun and kill someone and the cover image was Captain America shooting a gun.

It became a popular image, but he didn't want to have it be Steve Rogers moving forward (I believe in the comic he didn't actually shoot to kill in that incident). So John Walker was introduced as a gun-toting and firing "Captain America"

And as to Steve not using a gun let's be real though. Steve didn't use a gun because he didn't need a gun. If Steve had been allowed into the military before becoming Captain America he definitely would have been shooting a gun during the war. He just managed to get a strength and with the shield as his 'ranged weapon' he didn't use a firearm.

 

[Anwar]

I liked it, the depth and humanity they're giving to the Flag Smashers. I do wish they'd spent a little more time on Walker, showing him transition better from the friendly guy we saw in Episode 2 to the more "The Pressure is getting to me" guy we saw in Episode 3.

The comics had his parents be murdered by the Watchdogs, so the assumption here would've been that his family was going to get killed by the Flag Smashers. As all we've seen is his wife thus far, I'm VERY glad they didn't go for a "Woman in the Fridge" thing.

Two episodes left, let's see how this escalates now that Walker is enhanced and unbalanced. And I hope this isn't the end of the Wakandan presence in the show.

 

[FreezeC77]

I liked it, the depth and humanity they're giving to the Flag Smashers. I do wish they'd spent a little more time on Walker, showing him transition better from the friendly guy we saw in Episode 2 to the more "The Pressure is getting to me" guy we saw in Episode 3.

The comics had his parents be murdered by the Watchdogs, so the assumption here would've been that his family was going to get killed by the Flag Smashers. As all we've seen is his wife thus far, I'm VERY glad they didn't go for a "Woman in the Fridge" thing.

Two episodes left, let's see how this escalates now that Walker is enhanced and unbalanced. And I hope this isn't the end of the Wakandan presence in the show.

Certainly does seem like any chance of Sam as "Captain America" or with a different costume and the shield isn't going to occur until the last episode and may just be a post-credits glimpse if it even happens at all.

 

[Anwar]

Certainly does seem like any chance of Sam as "Captain America" or with a different costume and the shield isn't going to occur until the last episode and may just be a post-credits glimpse if it even happens at all.

That might be a nice homage to how the "Captain America No More!" story ended in the comics.

Steve didn't put his old uniform back on until the very last page of the last issue of the story.

"He's back. He did it his way....and it feels right!"

 

[David cgc]

It also did a good job of showing both sides of the issue. You can definitely see why Carli is doing what she is doing while not approving of her methods. She certainly has good reasons to feel wronged. She is just using extreme and misplaced methods for trying to solve the problem. I really liked Sam's talk with Carli at the funeral.

I really like how they're balancing Karli as an idealist with showing that she's also on a slippery slope towards murderous despotism, with claiming Sam "tricked" her into dehumanizing the people she's killed, and then her blithe explanation that she was only pretending to threaten Sam's family, she wasn't really going to do it, underscoring how easily her embrace of political violence and terrorism has gotten away from her own self-image.

The thought you mentioned above never ocurred to me once, and I really wish people would stop reducing other people to the color of their skin. And yes ... I also would have liked to see more of Lemar Hoskins/Battlestar. He seemed to be John Walker's conscience, and it would have been interesting to see how their friendship would have developed, once John Walker turned to the dark side.

It'a been such a blatant trope in pop culture for so long that the black character is the first one to get killed off that it still feels awkward to see it happen, even in a show with a fairly polychromic cast and a black lead actor (so it's merely that a black character that's the first one to get killed off, and not the black character). I'm not really sure of how to avoid it without either a much longer show, so we could see Walker escalate to beating a man to death in broad daylight one step at a time without a major emotional incident pushing him off the cliff all at once, or doing something even worse (making Battlestar not black, or fridging his briefly-seen wife instead), but we're still a long way away from the world where there can be a story where the black guy dies first without it being The Black Guy Dies First. It's the ocean we're all swimming it, we can't avoid the context.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Absolutely not - many of the international problems the US has stem from the fact how people wearing its flag, i.e. their soldiers, behaved in foreign country. Associating that flag with certain behaviour is why the US is so intensely hated in parts of the world. Now Walker, while practically wearing a flag, kills a man in the age of cell phone cameras and social media. The blood on the shield wouldn't have time to dry before videos of this were all over the Internet.

He failed as a symbol and a soldier and it will have great consequences.

Indeed. No one "deserves" to be publicly murdered in cold blood on foreign soil no matter what they may or may not have done. The fact that Walker was wearing the American flag really drives home the point of America overextending its reach in foreign countries where they're not wanted and thus are often hated.

How was that racist or sexist? He just couldn't believe that he got his ass handed to him by people who weren't super soldiers. It appears that he was arrogant enough to think a normal (unenhanced) human being could never be capable of something like that. And if they can wipe the floor with his ass, imagine what the super soldiers could do! It was the moment he realised that he is no Steve Rogers and that he would never last without being a super soldier himself.

The very presumption of a bunch black women with "just spears" is inherently derogatory. Is he really so ignorant to not who the Dora Mileje are, how they're trained, and the kind of weapons they used? The way he talked down to them before the fight broke makes his feelings pretty clear, too.

It'a been such a blatant trope in pop culture for so long that the black character is the first one to get killed off that it still feels awkward to see it happen, even in a show with a fairly polychromic cast and a black lead actor (so it's merely that a black character that's the first one to get killed off, and not the black character). I'm not really sure of how to avoid it without either a much longer show, so we could see Walker escalate to beating a man to death in broad daylight one step at a time without a major emotional incident pushing him off the cliff all at once, or doing something even worse (making Battlestar not black, or fridging his briefly-seen wife instead), but we're still a long way away from the world where there can be a story where the black guy dies first without it being The Black Guy Dies First. It's the ocean we're all swimming it, we can't avoid the context.

That's precisely the point I was trying to make but you said it much better than I did.

 

[Anwar]

The very presumption of a bunch black women with "just spears" is inherently derogatory.

I seriously doubt it had anything to do with Race or "just spears", he was just upset that despite being chosen to be Steve's successor, he's been getting his ass kicked at every turn. Not just by untrained Super-Soldiers, but now by people he thinks are perfectly normal.

Of course, those Wakandans grew up on a diet of Vibranium enhanced foods so that probably makes them more powerful than a normal trained person anyways.

Is he really so ignorant to not who the Dora Mileje are, how they're trained, and the kind of weapons they used? The way he talked down to them before the fight broke makes his feelings pretty clear, too.

He probably knew OF them as allies, but not of their actual capabilities as he's never met them. He was hoping they'd be a respectful to him as they were to Steve.

Surprise surprise, it takes more than the name.

 

[Oso Blanco]

The very presumption of a bunch black women with "just spears" is inherently derogatory. Is he really so ignorant to not who the Dora Mileje are, how they're trained, and the kind of weapons they used? The way he talked down to them before the fight broke makes his feelings pretty clear, too.

I think you are interpreting too much into that scene. It was about showing him that he is not the invincible hero he thought he was, being defeated by normal people with primitive weapons. Isn't the assumption that it was all about black women with spears a little racist in itself? I know you didn't mean it that way, no offense!

 

[Saul]

Great episode. Not as jarring or confusing as last week's episode. I'm really liking Sam in this series and I think it's great they can explore his character this way because I really wasn't interested in him until this point.

While it was expected that John Walker was going to go nuts, I wish the trigger point didn't have to be the death of Lamarr Hoskins. Not just the lost of a potentially great character (I don't know Battlestar beyond this show), but the image of killing a Black man to accelerate a white man's insanity isn't a good one. I know there's more to it than that but on the surface it doesn't look good.

It felt a bit sudden to me. He's shown to be a sympathetic character early on in the series. I found the change in his personality to be a bit abrupt and unearned. He went from a guy trying to do the right thing and talking too much to a guy that was suddenly on edge. I think more time needed to be devoted to exploring who he really is or to other factors leading up to his bloody shield.

 

[Anwar]

I know it's because this is a very short series, so some things will come off as rushed. 1 more episode showing scenes of Walker feeling the pressure would have gone a long way towards bridging the minor darkness we saw at the end of episode 2 to how angry he got in episode 3.

Could also be the result of the reshoots and rewrites since they had to drop the original plotline for the Flag Smashers.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I know Walker is an ass and we're supposed to root against him but I don't know that he and Lemar earned such an ass-kicking and having their lives put on the line for slighting the Dora Mileje.

 

[JD]

I was cheering for Walker at the end. They deserved it.

No, no, no, a thousand times no. I really hope you're joking, because that is the complete opposite of how decent people are supposed to feel about that scene.

This was the best episode yet, with some incredible fight scenes, some nice character moments, and one hell of an ending.
The fight scene with the Dora Mileje were fantastic.
Sam and Karli at the funeral was a nice character moment for both of them. They've done a good job of making Karli a sympathetic villain.
I really liked getting the flashback to Buck's time in Wakanda.
I understand it was the best way to push Walker over the edge, but I'm still disappointed they killed Hoskins.
That last shot of Walker holding the bloody shield was a hell of an image.

 

[Anwar]

I know Walker is an ass and we're supposed to root against him but I don't know that he and Lemar earned such an ass-kicking and having their lives put on the line for slighting the Dora Mileje.

I don't really think they deserved it. I mean, yes Walker screwed up the negotiation between Karli and Sam that could have ended things more peacefully but odds are that Zemo would have tried to kill her anyways.

And from Walkers' POV, Karli is just a terrorist who blew up innocent people. Sam seems a tad TOO forgiving of her in that light while Walker was more in line with how a soldier tasked with stopping a terrorist should be.

 

[Skywalker]

Certainly does seem like any chance of Sam as "Captain America" or with a different costume and the shield isn't going to occur until the last episode and may just be a post-credits glimpse if it even happens at all.

I'm thinking that brief clip we saw in the earliest teaser of Sam throwing the shield will be the last scene in the series.