Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Turtletrekker, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's also the odd man out in that the other movies listed all have Sam and/or Bucky in them.
     
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  2. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But it heavily ties into the super soldier serum arc.
     
  3. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    They showed footage from The Incredible Hulk in the special, which is probably why they listed it. But it still doesn't appear on Disney plus. I speculated earlier that perhaps Disney would attempt to get the rights to The Incredible Hulk because the She-Hulk show will be picking up elements from that movie. Perhaps it's a sign of things to come?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  4. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Yeah, that's what I was thinking and someone accidentally jumped the gun by listing it there.
     
  5. Claudia

    Claudia Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I binge-watched the series last weekend, but gave my thoughts a few days to percolate. And just to be clear: I don't know any of the comics, just the MCU. And I'm sorry, this turns out to be quite long. ;)

    I was looking forward to seeing more of Bucky and his journey towards redemption (if only in his own perception)... and while there was some good stuff about that, we didn't actually see it come full-circle. Not showing that last conversation, especially Bucky being confronted with that old man's emotions, possible anger, is a cop-out. Just as much as it was a cop-out never to have any mention or scene with Bucky and Tony after Siberia, just that ridicoulous letter by Steve (granted, we had a small Thanos- and larger snap-issue to deal with, and they couldn't exactly hug it out like Tony and Peter did during the battle... still...).

    However, by the end I enjoyed having Bucky smile more, flirt more, interact with other people more, and more genuinely than in the first episode, and form a firm friendship with Sam. There's still much work to be done (as expected after 70 years of brainwashing, torture etc), so I feel it's right that the "Winter Soldier" part's kept in the title - after all, for him to be the White Wolf we'll have to actually see him interact more than in a teaser and a couple of scenes with the Wakandans. The flashback to the testing of whether the programme was broken (and I definitely had the impression that this was the final test after all the work Shuri and the Dora put into deprogramming him, not him being put back into WS-mode and the Dora telling/ordering him to be free) was well done. Definitely one of the finer moments of this series.

    On to the Falcon/Captain America part: First of all, so far I was not a Sam-fan. I thought him a spineless follower. He had a job as counselor, and still he leaves everything behind after one meeting with Steve and not actually knowing what's going on. And I honestly despised his role in Civil War. As a military man he should know that there has to be accountability and a chain of command, that you can't just cross borders on a whim. That's what he, Rhodey and Bucky should know much better than Steve who performed as dancing monkey, never fought in an actual unit and disobeyed orders and rules left and right (until they just gave him his own unit and let him be).

    However, I liked his transition into taking up the shield. I especially liked that he never once thought of juicing himself up - or that he has to in order to pick up the shield. He went back to his roots, let his perceptions be turned upside down in meeting Bradley, and then came to a decision and trained to achieve his goal. I also enjoyed that TPTB went back to his training as a counselor: with Bucky, with Karli. And yes, Captain America will have to use his fists and the shield occasionally - but the difference (to Walker... and to Steve in a way) is that fighting can't be the first solution, it has to be the last.

    Although I thought the final speech rather preachy and cringe-worthy (saying "do better" in far too many ways and far too long-winded), I'm looking forward to seeing more here: an ordinary human-being taking up the shield, a black one at that... he'll have to fight to be heard, to overcome prejudice, a fight that can't be fought with fists. I know it's Marvel, it's supposed to be action, not so much dialogue, but I really hope TPTB won't just go back to business as usual.

    Walker and the flag-smashers:

    Well, Walker was a good soldier, but he's ambitious... and he had certain expectations, one being that he never thought he'd be challenged as Captain America. It was pretty clear where and how he'd end up. That the black best friend had to be the red shirt wasn't exactly necessary, but that he lied about killing the one who actually killed him, said much about his character. To me it's not quite clear when he exactly used the serum because quite honestly, killing that flag-smasher wasn't brought on by the serum. It remains to be seen what his role in the future'll be (and what the agenda of Louis-Dreyfus' character is)... adversarial?

    Seeing him kill in cold blood (hot rage whatever) reminded me of Siberia, Steve pretty much holding the shield in the same way over Tony (who definitely expected the shield to his head at that moment). I wonder if that similarity was coincidence or should highlight that Steve still had control over himself whereas Walker did not...

    The idea of the flag-smashers is an interesting one (and the underlying issue of displaced people just as important as the BLM), and I regret that Karli and that movement devolved from their original moral high ground into killing, kidnapping etc. It would have been interesting to see Karli react had the group broken up due to her decisions, not just uttered weak dissent. Was she already by the first conversation with Sam so far gone or could he have reached her (if not for Walker's interference) and maybe prevented further violence? I hope that the underlying issue of the now displaced people will be addressed in the future!

    Karli reminded me of Wanda, to be honest - but whereas Karli at least had some higher goal (and devolved then), Wanda's was only to take her revenge. But both were treated as "kids" (despite Wanda's being in her mid-twenties)... but that doesn't mean not having to face consequences for your actions. (And we know from WandaVision that she at least still has no regrets about joining Hydra and manipulating other minds...)

    Sharon and Zemo:

    Honestly, I couldn't care less about Sharon. She was a minor character in 2 movies, a possible love-interest... nothing more. But it would be interesting exactly what role she played in Civil War: Was she even genuinely helping Steve? Let's not forget, there are easier ways to kill someone than in close quarters, especially someone with super-powers. I'd have sent a sniper to eliminate Bucky if there was really a kill-order back in Bucharest. Even later, if she wanted to help she'd have offered to open a way to communicate and not returned Sam and Steve's weapons. She's a manipulator, she was that back in the movies from the beginning posing as Steve's neighbour, she's so now. So, my investment in her is negligible - I find her uninteresting, and I'd rather see her gone sooner than later (or at least revealed as the villain to Bucky and Sam).

    Zemo on the other hand made some good points. And while I understand where the Wakandans were coming from, I'd have expected him to end up in some Wakandan prison, not on the Raft. Why there? He's not a superhuman, after all, and presumably spent the last 7 years in that German prison without any problems. The problem was Bucky in this case. Is the raft now an official supermax-prison? I'd love to see more of him in the future!

    But again, I can see his points: Power corrupts, the serum corrupts... and worshipping Steve's memory doesn't change the fact that he was far from flawless: stubborn, self-righteous, distrustful and full of his own so-called moral superiority. That doesn't make him a bad human-being. But he was human, and not perfect (and not only by those not-perfect blue eyes). He was wrong sometimes just as much as everyone else. Maybe what's been missing for me in all the talk about him is that Steve wasn't an icon, he was a human-being making rash decisions which his friends should know, even if they'd rather think about the good times.

    Overall:

    I really enjoyed this series, the various issues it raises in a serious manner - and I can only hope that this will continue and not just be pushed to the side in order to get back to more action now that the personal conflicts of the protagonists are more or less resolved.

    Looking through the comments here, even older ones, I can't leave this one uncommented:

    This is simply a preposterous example of the single-minded hatred some people have towards one character. I'll even grant you Sokovia (albeit with the addition that multiple factors caused Ultron's creation, not just Tony).

    * the helicarriers had Stark's repulsor engines - that was it. Isn't SI allowed to make contracts with a legitimate goverment agency (which SHIELD at that point still was)?

    * Loki hooked into Stark tech - okay, so Tony shouldn't use the arc reactor for clean energy, just because some alien could use it to invite other aliens to Earth

    But of course, let's just put everything on Stark.

    And let's not mention that Stark could have helped in Washington (hello computer hacker) so that the files wouldn't have landed on the internet with who knows how many undercover agents left out in the open. There's no in-universe reason for him to be left out, especially since it's been established that he was on the list of targets (i.e. not Hydra)...

    And Loki... well, perhaps it was Thor's little adventure, or even Marvel and SHIELD's playing around with the Tesseract that led Loki and Thanos to Earth in the first place. Having a way to build a wormhole is a nice plus, but the invasion would have happened either way.

    I think it's important to realize that all these (fictional) characters have flaws - even the ones we love. It's no secret that Tony's my favourite character in the MCU (followed by Bucky)... but initially, I was on Steve's side, the first time I watched Civil War. But then I (re)watched all the other MCU-movies, and came out firmly on the other side... because while Steve might have said his issues were about the accords, they weren't. It was all about Bucky, and had Steve come clean earlier (and not done what he accused Tony of, namely keeping things from him), all this could have been prevented and together, they could have turned the Accords into something everyone could agree on...
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  6. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    I think that imagery is quite deliberate. That was something I noticed right away and it's easy see the contrast between the two in that moment. I'm surprised no one else has commented on that moment (that I noticed), myself included (I intended to but then forgot during my own review).
     
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  7. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hmm, that is a good point. For my part, I think my mind just went to the (possibly also intentional) similarity to unfortunate events that have happened in the real world with an authority figure publicly murdering someone while everyone else just watches and records it with their cell phones.
     
  8. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Commodore Commodore

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    Way to miss a point. Ross and Tony behind him were pinning everything on the Avengers. Tony was pushing the pen on Steve before he had a chance to sleep on it, much less consult a lawyer. The governments were using the Accords to push responsibility onto people who had no responsibility for the carnage. (I notice you avoided trying to retcon New York the way Ross did.)

    I don't have a "single-minded hatred" toward Tony. I've totally enjoyed his movies and love what Downey Jr. did with the character. My point was that the government's motivation with the Accords made them let Tony off the hook for Ultron, because they were dependent on his tech. Tony pushes this because his position remains effectively unchanged. All the examples Ross gave to justify putting the Avengers on a leash actually had nothing to do with them.
     
  9. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    I started watching the show late and I'm only on episode three, so to avoid spoilers I haven't read anything in this thread. Who is Sharon, again? I can't remember which of the MCU movies she was in.

    Kor
     
  10. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    She's Peggy Carter's great-niece and she was in The Winter Soldier and Civil War.

    Go to the Marvel menu on Disney Plus, go to the section for original television series, click on Marvel Legends and watch the Sharon Carter recap episode.
     
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  11. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    And Ross conveniently neglected to bring up Harlem, which was all his fault. I would have loved for Banner to have been there just to throw that one in his face.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Niece of Peggy Carter.

    Nieghbour girl in Captain America II.

    Possibly a love interest, but it never quite actually happened.

    They are almost nearly married in the comics.

    Turned out to be an Agent of SHIELD, protection detail for Steve.

    More stuff.

    She took Steve's side in the Civil War, and she was still on the run as a traitor 10 years later.

    Did you ever see the TV show "Revenge"?

    Your mom loved it.

    ;)
     
  13. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No problems with that! :)

    I seriously doubt Stark would listen to anything Bucky had to say--not that Bucky would be interested in talking to a man who tried to kill him, and ignoring the fact that Hydra brainwashed Bucky.

    Agreed.

    You have to ask yourself the question: "what would you do if people asked you to give them shelter because everyone they knew were trying to kill them?"

    At the time, Sam knew enough about Steve's Cap life that if he is on the run, where else would he go in those critical moments?

    By that standard, every Marvel character should be similarly criticized because they all go wherever they need to, and are not checking in at some country's embassy to ask for permission.

    :bolian:

    I thought the speech was necessary across the board, as he was trying to open a crack in the door of minds who failed to consider the negative impact of their proposals and were ready to go back to business as usual after their rescue. He was providing a voice they had not--or would not hear, and Sam--in front of the news media--dropped the responsibility back their collective laps, forcing them to suspend the vote. Sam's words had greater impact than terrorism (part the point Karli would rejected).


    Series creator Malcolm Spellman--from what I've gathered from some of his interviews--made a point to craft this series to be more than another bang/energy blast/"this time, its the biggest!" exercise; from his selection of who was in the writer's room, to taking a Marvel production in directions that were utterly ignored in the endless movies up to this point, Spellman's continued leadership should maintain the adult, important sociopolitical edge no matter what the characters end up facing in the forthcoming Captain America 4.

    Ah, but remember, Erskine made a point (to Steve) that the serum magnifies--or enhances the traits that are already in a person, so Steve was already a good man, so he became a better good man, while the Red Skull...you see where that ended up. This means that Walker--after using the serum--had his entitled, vengeful traits intensified, leading to his cold-blooded murder of the Flag Smasher.

    I thought the scene was a parallel; Steve was never going to kill Stark--just stop him from continuing on his attempt to kill Bucky. That's who Steve was as a character--he can become angry, but he's not a person like Walker, who believed he had the right to dispense justice fueled by rage.

    Sam tried, but appealing to a hard-core ideologue rarely produces a reduction in violence; even during the course of Sam's first conversation with Karli, she was steadfast in trying to justify her views / methods before Walker's interference. That scene was more about the kind of man Sam is--his approach to a global problem and basic ethics--than it was about the chance of Karli changing her mind.

    ...and so, Marvel needs to address Wanda's lack of regret.


    Agreed 1000%.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
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  14. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Commodore Commodore

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    And while I'm at it, given the awesomeness of Sam and Bucky doing a Sam and Dean, I want a series focusing on Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds on a road trip across America.
     
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  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Sounds more like a Tod and Buz thing to me.
     
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  16. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A reality show, or something with them as Wolverine and Deadpool?
     
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  17. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Yes.
     
  18. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    I always thought that a funny gag for a Deadpool movie would be having Hugh Jackman appearing as himself with Deadpool constantly calling him Wolverine and throwing him into superhero situations that he somehow manages to get through as Hugh Jackman.
     
  19. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Commodore Commodore

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    OMG yes!
     
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  20. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    I mean, Hugh Jackman anything and I'm there.