The Excelsior - uncovering the design

[David cgc]

Yep. The artists are the ones who end up being counted on to have back-ups, even though they aren't supposed to, and could, theoretically, get in trouble for having them. Over on Facebook, Mojo was just talking about this:

Some people have retained assets over the years. It's a sticky subject, because legally you're NOT supposed to, but in reality, many of these assets would have disappeared if it weren't for artists taking them home. Companies lose data all the time - stuff doesn't get backed up, stuff gets backed up in formats no longer readable, company goes out of business and no one archives the material, studios DO archive material but no one ever checks to see if it's all there, or those backups get lost or are managed by people who have no idea how to load and check a 3D model.

So, 20 years later, if someone asked Paramount, "Hi, I'm officially licensed to make a model kit of the Enterprise E, can you send us the Lightwave model made by Digital Domain" they'd laugh. No one would even know what you're talking about or where to send you.

Those models would (and many have) been literally lost to the wind and only still exist on the hard drives of artists who kept their own archives for safe keeping.

Digital asset management is only now becoming an official job, but in years prior it's a wasteland.

It sounds like the "vintage" starships that appear in the new Picard trailer were sourced from Eaglemoss, which is a step forward, since a side-effect of their ship-model line was assembling an archive of modernized, good-to-high quality 3D models of nearly every ship that's ever been in Star Trek.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It’s truly awesome that Eaglemoss seems to becoming the central repository for these things for use in official productions. Since this is their main wheelhouse, hopefully they will treat the legacy of these models with greater care than their predecessors for posterity.

It’s tragic what we’ve lost up to this point.

 

[yotsuya]

But remember how much is destroyed at the end of production. Sets, props, costumes, models too large to store. They all get discarded in some way. We are lucky if they get stored (usually when the studio sees some future use). But with digital assets, the asset on the storage medium isn't as valuable as the storage medium itself. They wipe and recycle. That is why all the Doctor Who episodes for the first two doctors don't exist on video tape. They actually have a couple of the tapes, but they were wiped and reused. Only the film prints survive. The TOS and TNG bridge sets were destroyed at the end of production. Pieces were saved, but not the whole thing. So losing a digital asset is a matter of who is trusted to archive it and keep it. I am not surprised at all. I'm more surprised at what has been kept and still exists.

 

[DEWLine]

Only now are they starting to catch on to archival value. And we may yet see people fighting a rearguard action to prevent archival thinking.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It’s also possible that profit-motive will induce production companies to hold onto things to sell them at auction. Anyone paying attention will have seen what kinds of bank gets rolled at outlets like Christie’s. They could see this as a kind of final return on their investment.

 

[Vale]

They wipe and recycle. That is why all the Doctor Who episodes for the first two doctors don't exist on video tape. They actually have a couple of the tapes, but they were wiped and reused. Only the film prints survive.

Doctor Who is an interesting case in that it's the most famous "missing episodes" show in the UK but it's not the only one – half of season two of Dad's Army doesn't exist, most of season one of The Avengers doesn't exist, etc etc. There are currently 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who, though the BBC officially junked 152 before this policy stopped in 1978, with 55 having been returned from overseas sales copies and film transfers. The BBC does retain the full soundtracks of every episode, however, hence why they can be recreated today as animations.

The main reason for the junking of old shows was that archiving video tape was expensive, and before home video was a thing the only thing that determined that a TV show should be kept was how likely it was to be rebroadcast and how likely it was to be sold abroad. By the 1970s the BBC had switched its entire output to colour and felt that black-and-white programs had no value for either rebroadcast or overseas sale; this issue was compounded by a bureaucratic problem in that nobody in the BBC had overall responsibility for archiving shows, so departments would freely erase master tapes in their own possession on the grounds that making sure there were backups was "someone else's problem" (and, more critically, someone else's budget).

Although all the currently missing episodes are from the William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton eras, the BBC did also junk some Jon Pertwee master tapes – though as those had been made in colour it was much easier to source backups from duplicates and overseas sales, though ironically some of them were only recovered in black-and-white and had to go through a recolourisation process, usually either combining film and video copies or chroma dot recovery, both of which are fascinating in their own right.

 

[yotsuya]

Doctor Who is an interesting case in that it's the most famous "missing episodes" show in the UK but it's not the only one – half of season two of Dad's Army doesn't exist, most of season one of The Avengers doesn't exist, etc etc. There are currently 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who, though the BBC officially junked 152 before this policy stopped in 1978, with 55 having been returned from overseas sales copies and film transfers. The BBC does retain the full soundtracks of every episode, however, hence why they can be recreated today as animations.

The main reason for the junking of old shows was that archiving video tape was expensive, and before home video was a thing the only thing that determined that a TV show should be kept was how likely it was to be rebroadcast and how likely it was to be sold abroad. By the 1970s the BBC had switched its entire output to colour and felt that black-and-white programs had no value for either rebroadcast or overseas sale; this issue was compounded by a bureaucratic problem in that nobody in the BBC had overall responsibility for archiving shows, so departments would freely erase master tapes in their own possession on the grounds that making sure there were backups was "someone else's problem" (and, more critically, someone else's budget).

Although all the currently missing episodes are from the William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton eras, the BBC did also junk some Jon Pertwee master tapes – though as those had been made in colour it was much easier to source backups from duplicates and overseas sales, though ironically some of them were only recovered in black-and-white and had to go through a recolourisation process, usually either combining film and video copies or chroma dot recovery, both of which are fascinating in their own right.

The audio that exists is entirely due to fans. Fans allowed the BBC to make copies for their archives. The earl Hartnell episodes are not very good as they are recorded by mic from a TV speaker. Later episodes were recorded by hacking a TV and turning the speaker wires into a line out directly in to a recorder. Only 1 episode of the Pertwee era was not recoverable. One episode of The Mind of Evil had to be colorized. But with the other episodes, they had the accurate colors. The chroma dot process is good, but not perfect. There are some artifacts due to how the film was created that mess with the color. None of the episodes in their present color state were restored from any other source than the Chroma Dot process from the B&W film. There were a handful that were recovered from overseas PAL video tape masters, but they didn't need restoration.

But this is a more widespread problem because so many television programs were aired live and there were no video tape or film copies kept. A lot of them exist because they needed to film them to rebroadcast them for the west coast. I Love Lucy was the first show that was filmed and then broadcast.

But at the time Doctor Who video tapes were recycled, a tape might run 2000 Pounds. It was too valuable to waste and with tight budgets it was a valuable commodity that was otherwise sitting on shelves gathering dust. So they got reused as many times as possible. The BBC didn't rebroadcast much of anything. They did rebroadcast the very first Doctor Who episode the following week. But other than that they didn't rebroadcast any episodes. The sale of the series to US markets was the first time they realized the old episodes were worth something. Fortunately they stopped their wiping program before the home video era so they had a lot they could provide for home viewing.

With the audio existing, they have been animating some of the missing episodes, but they evidently aren't selling as well so they might not finish the project. They filled in a large hole in Troughton's stories.

And the Chroma Dot process was discovered on some of the film copies of Dad's Army and that was the first series it was tried on. They do have to use colorization tools to fill in the gaps, but it provides nearly all the color.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Except for the Norway.

What little we can see of the Norway in magazines suggests that it has an arrowhead hull like Voyager but nacelles shaped more like the Enterprise-D's nacelles. It seems like an interesting middle step and it would be interesting to have a better idea of its scale and weapons to get an idea of its role in the fleet. Trekyards compared the New Orleans-class to the Intrepid and found similarities. I wonder how the Norway might fit into that. It's nacelles are also underneath, like a Miranda, Nebula or Akira. I suspect it is older than the Intrepid, but newer than the New Orleans-class.

 

[publiusr]

But remember how much is destroyed at the end of production. Sets, props, costumes, models too large to store. They all get discarded in some way.

Now that is why sets need to be built and left in place at dead malls for museums/laser tag…the remaining space as server farms…so the studio has a side hustle

 

[Vale]

None of the episodes in their present color state were restored from any other source than the Chroma Dot process from the B&W film. There were a handful that were recovered from overseas PAL video tape masters, but they didn't need restoration.

And the Chroma Dot process was discovered on some of the film copies of Dad's Army and that was the first series it was tried on. They do have to use colorization tools to fill in the gaps, but it provides nearly all the color.

I see you didn't actually look at the links in my post...

 

[yotsuya]

I see you didn't actually look at the links in my post...

No, I have all the episodes and have watched the special features on the restoration. I also have followed from the first attempts to restore the color to the original PAL quality since they first tried to layer the NTSC video tape color to the film. I also have chatted with a couple of the restoration people on one of the Doctor Who forums.

They have also developed a way to take the 25 fps film and recreate the original 50 fps PAL look. They created software to restore missing frames from the neighboring frames and so they took the 25 fps film and added in the missing half frames between. There is a good example of this on the Tomb of the Cybermen DVD. I am well versed on all the damage to the various Doctor Who episodes, the last one being one of Tom Baker's episodes. The same with The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before and its original edit. There is at least one section of The Cage that is missing that was shown at conventions because there is an audio recording (not of any quality to restore) of it. Right now my interest is in the original FX shots of the Enterprise that have survived.

 

[Dukhat]

It’s truly awesome that Eaglemoss seems to becoming the central repository for these things for use in official productions. Since this is their main wheelhouse, hopefully they will treat the legacy of these models with greater care than their predecessors for posterity.

Unfortunately, some of EM's models are not entirely screen-accurate due to them not having the production resources available (e.g. the Kelvin timeline Kobayashi Maru; the Freedom class Firebrand without the sensor pod underneath the saucer; the Yeager class without the sensor dish, etc.) Conversely, other ships that were low-poly or even lost now have much better CGI models made of them thanks to EM (The Norway and Steamrunner spring instantly to mind.)

What little we can see of the Norway in magazines suggests that it has an arrowhead hull like Voyager but nacelles shaped more like the Enterprise-D's nacelles. It seems like an interesting middle step and it would be interesting to have a better idea of its scale and weapons to get an idea of its role in the fleet. Trekyards compared the New Orleans-class to the Intrepid and found similarities. I wonder how the Norway might fit into that. It's nacelles are also underneath, like a Miranda, Nebula or Akira. I suspect it is older than the Intrepid, but newer than the New Orleans-class.

The underside of the Norway was given the hull pattern of the Defiant. You can even briefly see it in First Contact:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Norway_class

This is possible evidence that the Norway class (and the three other FC ships) were built post-BoBW to fight future Borg incursions (as was the original purpose of the Defiant class.) It also explains why these ships were part of the DS9 fleet scenes, being those ships mentioned by Shelby to be the replacements for the ships lost at Wolf 359. What it doesn't explain is why they all had such low registry numbers, or why none of the multitude of other ship classes were seen in the fleets. Are we now supposed to believe that 2370's-era Starfleet consists mainly of Akiras, Steamrunners and Sabers, with old Excelsiors and Mirandas thrown in the mix, and only a tiny smattering of Galaxies and Nebulas?

(I didn't add the Intrepid, Sovereign, Prometheus or Nova classes because they are clearly newer and had probably not yet been mass-produced at that time.)

 

[Vale]

No, I have all the episodes and have watched the special features on the restoration. I also have followed from the first attempts to restore the color to the original PAL quality since they first tried to layer the NTSC video tape color to the film. I also have chatted with a couple of the restoration people on one of the Doctor Who forums.

Me too. I was a regular poster on Outpost Gallifrey back before the new series was even announced.

They have also developed a way to take the 25 fps film and recreate the original 50 fps PAL look. They created software to restore missing frames from the neighboring frames and so they took the 25 fps film and added in the missing half frames between. There is a good example of this on the Tomb of the Cybermen DVD.

Oh, I do love Tomb. Probably my favourite Troughton.

I am well versed on all the damage to the various Doctor Who episodes, the last one being one of Tom Baker's episodes.

I assume you mean the end of The Deadly Assassin episode three? Uniquely that wasn't missing from the master tape due to a conventional junking, it was deliberately removed by the BBC in response to complaints by the National Viewers' and Listener's Association to intentionally prevent overseas sale or rebroadcast.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

There is at least one section of The Cage that is missing that was shown at conventions because there is an audio recording (not of any quality to restore) of it.

What dialogue is that version that is not on the tape or DVD versions?

 

[yotsuya]

What dialogue is that version that is not on the tape or DVD versions?

I haven't actually heard it. But someone else had and it is some line spoken by Vina. The color film they found did not have audio so the only audio for the full episode was the film Roddenberry had and it had a number of issues. So evidently this spot in the episode had damage and was spliced and that audio was lost. So they didn't include it in the episode when they restored it.

 

[yotsuya]

Movement at long last. My cross section has corridors, a bridge, warp core, cargo pods, and more. I might have the NX version done quickly. Then I have to redraw the warp core and make the changes for the Mk II and Mk III.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Looking forward to seeing this.

 

[NervousEnergy]

Can't wait!

 

[publiusr]

Excellent!

 

[yotsuya]

Turbolifts!!!! The best design for the Excelsior would have shafts on either side through most of the secondary hull, neck, and impulse deck.

Closing in. Next Phasers and other equipment to fill out the detail.