The End Of Time Part 2 - Comment & Grading SPOILERS

[timelord1010]

I was wondering if RTD ripped off the Matrix with the Master doing a Agent Smith? He already ripped off Star Wars with the laser pod scene.

 

[Pindar]

I finally got to see it. I loved it and if you didn't enjoy it then bah humbug to you.

 

[Tom]

Well I loved this episode, makes me enjoy how fun this show is. In a stange way it makes me appreciate Abrams and the Star Trek Movie, make it fun and entertaining don't be so ties dwn in the seriousness of it. I would not mind seeing RTD take on a star trek series.

I already miss Tennant!

I don't Want to go!

Some Avatars I'm making pealple can use:

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Well that was nicely done. Surprisingly low key too, given that it was an RTD affair.

 

[Pindar]

Does anyone know if the commentaries available to download or are they only streaming audio?

 

[Jax]

The comments on the BBC website are awful...these people seem to only tune into the odd episode to complain and don't get the show. RTD should be very very proud of his work over the last 5 years.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Having read through the thread, I feel a bit silly not picking up the clues that suggested the Woman was Susan. Seems rather obvious now and makes the most sense. It certainly works a lot better than her being The Doctor's mum or even Romana, who I can only hope we again.

Why do bad guys have to tell everyone there evil plans

Because it's in the Bad Guy Guidebook, of course!

We really overthought that "Journal of Impossible Things" didn't we?

We certainly did! I kept thinking Verity Newman and The Journal of Impossible Things were going to be weaved into the whole "end of time" and "time leaking" situation. Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

I am getting vibes of Patrick Troughton from Matt Smith... Don't know if it is the dress or how he moves, but this could be good.

I've been getting Second Doctor vibes since the first pictures were released. Plus descriptions of him acting like an older professor type. I can only hope I'm right because The Second Doctor is my second favorite Doctor.

I was also damn disappointed that when the Doctor was lying face down in the booth that he didn't lift his head and was Matt Smith. That would have been perfect and understated. Instead we had the Doctor saying "Ulp, looks like I'm dying. Very slowly." and going for a stroll down near-literal memory lane.

I wasn't disappointed by this, it was more like when Jon Pertwee regenerated into Tom Baker.

He was poisoned by a metric crap ton of radiation in his body and still had time to walk all the way back from the caves of Metibelius three and run the Tardis back to earth. Plus in Normal Humans Radiation poisoning can have a phase called the "walking ghost phase" it kinda seemed like the Doctor was in this Phase....

Not to mention falling hundreds of feet from a spaceship through a glass ceiling.

That really bugged me. The Fourth Doctor died from a similar fall!

I do hope, now that we've seen the Time Lords as the colossal douchebags they've always been, that we get to have a Doctor that doesn't suffer any survivor's guilt / species angst.

Same here. With a few individual exceptions (Susan, Romana, K'anpo Rinpoche, Azmael, Rodan), the Time Lords were nothing but a pain in the ass for The Doctor. Hopefully now he's gotten over this whole thing.

I will say that the handling of Susan was one of the classiest, most subtle and most restrained things this show has ever done. I thought that was wonderful.

In retrospect, I have to agree with this. It's not very often Davies accomplishes subtly but he has succeeded in this case.

Anyway, did anyone else think that when The Doctor collapsed in the snow after talking to Rose that Eccleston was going to help him to the TARDIS? The first Doctor that RTD created and the beginning of his era coming back for one more scene at the end of it all.

I hadn't thought about that but I agree such a moment would have awesome, even if nonsensical.

I would theorize that that was Susan in her last regeneration -- that she, presumably, left 22nd Century Earth after her Human lover died and returned to Gallifrey, becoming part of the High Council by the time of the Time War.

Why would she he have to be on her final regeneration? She would be even more reckless than The Doctor assuming she was on her first regeneration when we first met her. The Time Lords are essentially immortal barring accident (as The Second Doctor says).

This actually gives us quite a few interesting tidbits about the Time War. We know from "The Sound of Drums" that the Master abandoned the Time Lords when the Dalek Emperor led Dalek forces in capturing the Cruxiform, which I would speculate was a Time Lord landmark on Gallifrey itself. We know that the Doctor's actions led to the destruction of 10 million Dalek ships and his entire species from "Dalek" and "The Sound of Drums." We see in "The End of Time, Part Two" that the Time Lord Citadel itself was surrounded by downed Dalek ships and was burning. And we know from this episode that the Time Lord High Council was mostly following the Lord President's lead in formulating a plan to end the Time War by wiping out the whole of creation save the Time Lords themselves, which is what prompted the Doctor to destroy both the Daleks and Gallifrey.

Given all this, I would theorize that the Dalek forces had actually defeated the Time Lords in territories held outside their home system and era, and that they were actually in the process of invading Gallifrey itself (a task to which they seem to have dedicated all of their forces) when the Time Lords formulated their plan to bring about the end of time. I would speculate that Susan used her position on the Council to leak those plans to the Doctor, who then used "the moment" -- whatever that is -- to annihilate all of Gallifrey, including all of the Time Lords and the Daleks. Given the reference to the Daleks having "disappeared from time and space" in "The Parting of the Ways," I would presume that the moment and the time lock functioned to remove the Time Lords and the Daleks from history itself, with the more highly-evolved species being aware of history's alteration -- therefore preserving some knowledge of the Time Lords' existence, albeit rendering them as "legends" rather than a civilization only recently destroyed -- and the lesser species being unaware of the changes brought to history.

This would also nicely explain how the Doctor knew that his family was killed in the destruction of Gallifrey (as established in "The Doctor's Daughter").

Excellent analysis and I have to agree completely.

and Rasillon? ok, it sort of makes sense, I'm glad it's not Romana who was the President then, I still see her as one good thing about the Time Lord high council. Besides, I'm sure it allows the team a little giggle at the "glove of Rassilon" joke.

I agree bringing back Rasillon was a bit odd, but I'm glad it wasn't Romana who had gone all crazy.

btw, did anyone thought the time lady killed by Dalton at the beginning is Councillor Flavia?

Hm, I hadn't thought about that but that would make sense.

The regeneration scene I thought was done nicely...

I was disappointed with the regeneration though, specifically, the effects of regeneration. I was hoping for a different effect, because every regeneration has been different since Hartnell.

I, too, was disappointed by this. I can only hope that when it's Matt Smith's turn to move on, whoever is in charge (hopefully Moffat still) will use different effects.

Okay, one more slight annoyance. So The Tenth Doctor's regeneration tears up the TARDIS interior despite only absorbing radiation but The Ninth Doctor's regeneration caused by taking in the Heart of the TARDIS doesn't? Seems like a bit of stretch...

The likely explanation is that the damage to the TARDIS was caused with the fact that Ten didn't want to go. That, or maybe with every regeneration there is a means of controlling the damage, and the last two times we saw it (from Nine to Ten and the Master's), there had full control. With Ten not wanting to go, perhaps him holding on as long as he did lowered the usual controls, allowing for the damage to happen.

I know, a long shot, but it seems most likely. That, and I liked that the TARDIS was on fire on the outside heading back to Earth. Nice touch with the windows as well.

Hm, I suppose I could go with that. Still bit of a stretch but it'll have to do.

is it me or is the female vinvocci sexier than the actress who played her out of the make up?

I thought the same thing, she seemed cuter as a cactus to me.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought that.

5. My only other regret for the episode is that the Doctor died alone. Am I right that this is the very first time this has happened? There's usually always a companion or someone else around. Dying alone seemed kind of...

Nope, The Doctor has regenerated twice before without a companion: The Second Doctor into The Third Doctor and The Seventh Doctor into The Eighth Doctor. Mel was present for The Sixth Doctor's regeneration into The Seventh Doctor but she was unconscious at the time and didn't know he had regenerated until later.

I was wondering if RTD ripped off the Matrix with the Master doing a Agent Smith? He already ripped off Star Wars with the laser pod scene.

That's only fair considering The Matrix ripped off Doctor Who first (see The Deadly Assassin).

 

[Skellington]

I thought the same thing, she seemed cuter as a cactus to me.

"Cuter as a cactuis". That phrase should enter the vernacular!

 

[Mr Awe]

Fantastic! I really enjoyed this! But, damn, I hate to see Tennant go!!

Overall, I enjoyed how the Time Lords and Gallifrey almost returned. We learned why the Doctor sealed them off to begin with, they were too dangerous. Although, I wish some Time Lords had stayed. We don't really know who started the 4 beats message in the Master's head, do we? We aren't meant to know who the Time Lady was. Or did I miss something?

Once we saw Gallifrey in the skies of Earth, I knew that it would be returned completely along with all of the Time Lords.

Ah, almost felt bad for the Master, used for his entire life! Really touching that he got to smite the Time Lords. Was that actually Rassilon?

A recap on my my predictions versus results, which were mixed.

First the hits, no reboot and no really regeneration rigamarole. People got worked up over monkeying with these things. But, it's a successful series, they're not going to screw with the formulat now. No, those things weren't going to happen.

I missed on a couple of things. I thought Wilf and/or Donna might be Time Lords. Just regular people. That worked to great end at the end for Wilf. No way was the Doctor going to let him die despite the fact that he was an old man near the end of his life! Very touching! The Doctor is willing to sacrifice himself for that, not just the universe shattering things!

Mr Awe

 

[Tom]

I thought the same thing, she seemed cuter as a cactus to me.

"Cuter as a cactuis". That phrase should enter the vernacular!

And Spucky too!

 

[Andy S]

it's a predestination paradox and a causal loop.

it was the Nightmare Child (previously mentioned in 'The Stolen Earth') and the King of Never-Was, i think.

TARDIS wiki mentions Skaro degradations and Hordes of Travesty

IIRC correctly it was the Could Have Been King and his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres.

The trouble is all these things sound absolutely brilliant and fantastic even, but along with the Gates of Elysium, the Jaws of the Nightmare Child, the Fall of Arcadia etc., etc., etc. we never actually got to see any of this. Apart from the Medusa Cascade so much of the mythology of the Time War is lost to us and although it all sounds so very grandiose it doesn't really translate to anything tangible. With RTD now gone, how much of this are we ever going to see on the screen.

 

[Skellington]

On Rassilon -- if they did bring him back, it is clear they must have used the same technique that Dawn used in trying to bring Joyce back after she died, and as mentioned to Dawn and Spike as a possibility by the Joel Grey demon, he "came back wrong."

Same universe, you reckon? Actually. Doctor Who is mentioned as a TV programme in a season 6 episode of Buffy.
Speaking iof Dawn, she was actually introduced by a spell that "wrote over" existing history, so maybe she's the better comparison.

 

[Skellington]

One question: How was the Woman (I'm going to assume she was Susan) able to appear to Wilf when she and the rest of the Time Lords were still locked inside the Time War?

IMO she's from after the Time War and the "bubble", and is changing what is to her the past as initially experienced while she was part of Rassilon's posse; so the "Susan" who unveils herself to Ten hasn't yet contacted Wilf, but by the time she does she knows from memory how things will pan out (to as point).

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The comments on the BBC website are awful...these people seem to only tune into the odd episode to complain and don't get the show. RTD should be very very proud of his work over the last 5 years.

Absolutely. He made this live on whole new levels.

 

[Sci]

Why would she he have to be on her final regeneration? She would be even more reckless than The Doctor assuming she was on her first regeneration when we first met her. The Time Lords are essentially immortal barring accident (as The Second Doctor says).

Pardon me; I meant, it was Susan in her final regeneration, as in, the last body she had before she died, not that she had run out of regenerations.

 

[arch101]

I started watching this show 33 years ago, so I guess I'm one of the "older" fans on the board. That said, this was certainly the most emotional final show for a Doctor ever. I rather liked the touch of revisiting all the companions one last time (I was unaware of their appearances until I saw the show). I admit, I needed the kleenex for the first time since BSG went off the air. I could nitpick the ep and find lot of little faults, but overall, it was another in a string of great shows from the creative team. I just hope the new guys can keep up the quality. I'm still in disbelief that I'm watching new Who shows after all these years and they're better than ever.
Also, as an "old timer", I'd bet on the Time Lady being Susan. I definitely got the vibe and fully expected the Doctor to tell Wilf that she was so. Was surprised he didn't.

 

[Arrqh]

it's a predestination paradox and a causal loop.

it was the Nightmare Child (previously mentioned in 'The Stolen Earth') and the King of Never-Was, i think.

TARDIS wiki mentions Skaro degradations and Hordes of Travesty

IIRC correctly it was the Could Have Been King and his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres.

The trouble is all these things sound absolutely brilliant and fantastic even, but along with the Gates of Elysium, the Jaws of the Nightmare Child, the Fall of Arcadia etc., etc., etc. we never actually got to see any of this. Apart from the Medusa Cascade so much of the mythology of the Time War is lost to us and although it all sounds so very grandiose it doesn't really translate to anything tangible. With RTD now gone, how much of this are we ever going to see on the screen.

Nothing we could ever see on screen could compare to the names themselves, which are clearly designed to sound cool but are fairly nonsensical. The "meat" of the time war, as it were, is much better left off screen because trying to translate it to anything tangible would simply make it less grandiose.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Of all the times we've actually seen the Doctor regenerate onscreen, I've only missed the First into the Second. Each time, I've always felt a little sad because it is indeed the death of that particular Doctor, no matter how you look at it, IMO.

This one was indeed the most emotional good-bye to a Doctor up until the very end. And while some could argue that they were laying it on a bit thick, I think it works because this was a Doctor that truly didn't want to go and his revisiting of old friends was a genuine indulgence he wanted to do for himself while he still had time.

Loved the explosion of the TARDIS as a symbolic end of the RTD era...

 

[Brent]

Question - How was the White Point Star diamond thing able to escape the time lock and be sent to Earth?

I can maybe understand how the 4 beat heartbeat signal got through, but how where they physically able to send the white point star if they are in a time lock that nothing can get in or out?

 

[Australis]

Two thoughts.

One. I took the Gates of Arcadia to be a defensive position, the Cruciform as a weapon or power source, the Nightmare Child, the Could Have Been King (etc), the Skaro Degradations, and the Horde of Travesties as temporal weapons, possibly even sentient, used against the Daleks to corrupt them, weapons so complex they needed different names to 'gun', 'ship', and 'exocet'. Cool, cool names, I think. And a follow up to that - the Doctor thought the Nightmare Child was so bad he tried to rescue Davros from it.

Two. I wondered earlier what happeened to the Master, if he escaped. Rewatching it, I think he disappeared back into the time lock with Rassilon and co. And as I said earlier, I don't the the Time Lords are dead, just trapped in the time lock, which is something worse than a temporal loop.