Nope. The Dominion attacks DS9. War is declared. Boom baby. Major difference.
Mining of the wormhole was a defensive act. Defense doesn't equal declaration of war.
The Dominion war.
- Thread starter Bluesteel
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Nope. The Dominion attacks DS9. War is declared. Boom baby. Major difference.
Mining of the wormhole was a defensive act. Defense doesn't equal declaration of war.
So you are agreeing that Sisko interfered and warned the Cardassians.
No you're wrong it is still interfering. The Klingons wouldn't have fired on the Defiant if it didn't go in to escort the Detapa Council.
I didn't make up the definition for a cold war. It's there already and exists in dictionaries. You should look it up.
Oh and the mining of the wormhole lead to the conflict it. If anything it's a casus belli.
Of course they were hostile towards the Federation. But they were careful not to make extreme moves for example mining a wormhole.[/QUOTE]
Yes, trying to blow up a sun in a nonaligned system to destroy a fleet of Federation ships and a Federation administered space station is not an extreme move in the slightest.
The Dominion committed several acts that could have easily provoked a war in the years since they made themselves known. However, due to the Federation's nature it seems to be heavily reluctant to take that next step allowing the Dominion to get away with them. Its neighbours know that you can violate the Federation's territory and attack its ships and bases and the Federation won't declare war, it will "open a dialogue" instead.
The Dominion didn't need to go to war when the wormhole was mined, it chose to do so. In fact by doing so it made it possible for it to lose the war. By attacking it feel into Sisko's trap and was letting the Federation dictate what happened for the first time.
The smarter move would be to not go to war with the Federation and instead enter into drawn out negotiations. The Federation will than tie itself into this action and the Dominion would probably be more than capable to continuing its build up to that point that the Federation feared would be where they could steamroll the quadrant and no one could stop them.
It is called leverage. The Dominion entered orbit and immediately destroyed the runabout in orbit. Had they not Sisko and co would have been able to retreat from the planet, but without a ship they only had one option and that was to retreat into the attack ship. Once inside they were trapped and it also became their only bargaining chip to try to get out of that situation. Sisko would have been an idiot just to give it up for nothing, though it would have been interesting to see what he would have done if they had found the Founder and captured it before it died.
Oh I realize that. It's just great fun to watch Bluesteel sink himself/herself further.
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Fleet Captain
That is what I wrote. He circumvented Federation rules to do it.
They weren't aiding the Cardassians militarily.
Didn't start a war though did it? It wasn't big an obvious. It didn't cause a huge reaction probably because the Founders kept it simple and quite. It's the difference between. Look at the war on Terror. There were many terrorist incidents that happened including the Cole bombings. How ever it was 9/11 that started the WoT.
Yes they did. They had no choice. Sisko refused to stop mining the wormhole. How else could they have kept the wormhole open without taking control of the wormhole and DS9 the station that controlled the wormhole. It was Sisko who didn't need to mine the wormhole. If they really wanted a war with the Dominion they could have just built up there forces and defence forces.
The Dominion did do that. Weyoun tried to negiogate to keep the wormhole open.
The only problem is.... Sisko didn't claim the ship for the safety of his crew. He claimed it because the crew were dead and he found it first.
Oh I realize that. It's just great fun to watch Bluesteel sink himself/herself further.
When one resorts to attacking the opponet rather then his argument. It's usually a sign that your losing the plot or argument.
It probably didn't start a war because the attempt failed, though the attempt in itself would be enough if the Federation wanted to declare war.
It was still an extreme attempt. I don't know how you can't fathom the attempt to destroy a populated star system as anything but extreme.
They still had a choice. Weyoun only entered negotiations for all of 2 minutes. If it was a serious attempt they would have gone over the head of a mere captain and spoke with Starfleet Command or the Federation Council. Plus it didn't help that Weyoun wasn't willing to negotiate in good faith.
Sisko and the Federation were the ones that had no choice if they wanted to be able to defeat the Dominion if it came to war. To allow them unrestricted access to flood the AQ with warships and troops for war is insane. The fact is the first convoy of ships proved more than enough to secure Cardassia's borders as they destroyed the Maquis and drove the Klingons out.
Abandoned vessel, fair game. However, the next Dominion ship on the scene made it impossible for ship to just yield the vessel back to its owners. They attacked without offering the option to surrender or leave peacefully. If that runabout wasn't destroyed Sisko would have been able to retreat from the planet and not need to take shelter in the ship at all.
Oh I realize that. It's just great fun to watch Bluesteel sink himself/herself further.
When one resorts to attacking the opponet rather then his argument. It's usually a sign that your losing the plot or argument.
That wasn't an attack. It was meant in jest as the smiley testifies. I apologize if it hurt.
When one resorts to ignoring the opponent's argument however, it is usually a sign that you're losing the plot and the argument. You've not replied to my previous two posts. I can only assume that you aren't able to.
This is the crux of the argument. If everything could be reduced to bullshit this can't. Sisko deliberately mined the wormhole to start the war before the Dominion got to strong in Cardassia.
That would explain his lack of trust towards the Vorta and Jem'Hadar. But not his insistence that the ship was rightfully his. It's one thing to be in the ship for safety and a compelelty different thing to be in it because it's yours.
That wasn't an attack. It was meant in jest as the smiley testifies. I apologize if it hurt.
When one resorts to ignoring the opponent's argument however, it is usually a sign that you're losing the plot and the argument. You've not replied to my previous two posts. I can only assume that you aren't able to.
I don't have a lot of time. Most of the arguments for you guys are the same old repeats. I just get to the point.
Listen, Bluesteel, you're arguing formalities. Yes, Sisko may have conciously provoked the official start of the war (I wouldn't say he started the war, just like the US blockade of Cuba during the Missile Crisis didn't start a war), because, as he stated: they were losing the peace, war was perhaps their only chance. But that doesn't make the Feds guilty for the war. It was a preemptive act, they had no other choice. The Dominion was bent on war from the first moment, the Federation wanted peace. Had the Federation not provoked war at that point, before the Dominion was ready, the Dominion would have surely started the war themselves, later, when their preparations finished, thus making Federation's defeat certain.
The Dominion did have a choice. They could have approached Bajor long before the decision to mine the wormhole was made and negotiate with them on the wormhole. Had Bajor refused, they most likely would have attacked anyway to ensure they had control of the wormhole.
Sisko and the Federation had no choice once the Dominion buildup of their massive armada was getting out of hand. It's the buildup that really escalated into war. The Dominion had no reason to start building up their forces to such an extent (they were going to bring all of 1000s more warships through the wormhole), except if it was to go to war. And the war did not officially start until the Dominion attacked DS9 with its fleet of ships. That's when war was declared.
What does anyone expect the UFP to do anyway? Sit by and watch while the Dominion went ahead with implementing their warplans thus ensuring the defeat of the Federation? That's either monumentally stupid or extremely masochistic and self-defeating. The best and only choice was the defensive move of mining the wormhole (which, I repeat, resulted in no loss of ships or personnel or damage of any kind). War officially started when the Dominion started attacking directly with its fleet and resulted in damage and loss of people and ships on both sides.
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No, Sisko mined the wormhole to defend the Federation against the Dominion aggression of building up its massive armada in the AQ which the Dominion didn't have to do. Talk about choice: The Dominion need not have escalated matters by trying to bring almost its entire armada into the AQ. They had a choice. They deliberately chose to be aggressive and provoke war. It's what they've wanted all along, unlike the UFP which only wanted peace.
Every argument you've made, every "point" you've made has been acknowledged and refuted. The fact that you don't see it makes your points repetitive.
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True. I'm pretty sure that isn't the law of the sea on this planet, either, particularly when it comes to warships that sank within days and have demonstrably not been abandoned by their government. To the best of my knowledge, even if it were a private ship, and it had not been abandoned, all Sisko would have coming to him is a salvor's fee.Edit: I forgot about them blowing up the runabout, though. Dirty pool.
Edit: I forgot about them blowing up the runabout, though. Dirty pool.
Yes, they blew up the runabout. And once again Sisko had no choice but to retreat into the Jem'Hadar ship and try to use it to bargain for the safety of his away team.
If that was the case then the Wormhole wouldn't have been mined when Sisko was offered to send in non-military vessels.
Edit: I forgot about them blowing up the runabout, though. Dirty pool.
Yes, they blew up the runabout. And once again Sisko had no choice but to retreat into the Jem'Hadar ship and try to use it to bargain for the safety of his away team.
So why didn't Sisko use that has a reason not to leave the Ship? Why did he use the Finders Keepers Losers Weepers rule? He Insisted the ship was theirs even when the hot Vorta mentioned to him he sounds like a thief.
There is a difference between you establishing a colony and a planet joining you of their own free will.
Yes, and there's a difference between slaughtering a colony of people who thought there was no one else around to claim the planet and simply approaching them and saying "Yo, new dudes. Not to rain on your parade but you're on our turf."
I know Bluesteel is likely going to go for the gray areas here but I side with the black and white argument: The Dominion made it clear in damn near every encounter they wanted war and aggression. Mining the wormhole was the best way to minimize the death and violence the Feds KNEW was coming NO MATTER WHAT.
If they hadn't mined the wormhole, the Dominion would have gone to war with them anyways. Only difference being the Feds wouldn't have been able to successfully defend themselves.
I know Bluesteel is likely going to go for the gray areas here but I side with the black and white argument: The Dominion made it clear in damn near every encounter they wanted war and aggression. Mining the wormhole was the best way to minimize the death and violence the Feds KNEW was coming NO MATTER WHAT.
If they hadn't mined the wormhole, the Dominion would have gone to war with them anyways. Only difference being the Feds wouldn't have been able to successfully defend themselves.
That's not my point. There's no difference in terms of protection or territory once the colony has been established or the planet joins of their free will. Once the new planet is part of the UFP, it becomes UFP territory. Both are different modes of "expansion". So saying the UFP can't expand into the GQ is incorrect if you say that they can recruit new planets in the GQ. The new planets become UFP territory, which Starfleet can protect and build spacestations/bases there.
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