The Dominion war.
- Thread starter Bluesteel
- Start date
I love threads like this, they're crazy!
What we're seeing here is basically a general description of war from a couple of different sides of the fence. No-one can turn around and say that the Dominion didn't start the war really, as the Federation effectively being lured into taking a Vorta spy on board the station at the end of Season 2 (but for the fact they busted her) hardly shows the Dominion up as having noble motives. However, anyone with a perfect set of morals couldn't condone the fact that the Federation killed millions of Jem'Hadar and Vorta and the odd founder either. That's what war's about, a time of conflict where moral values have to go out of the window sometimes if you want to stay alive.
However, that said, the people who are saying that the Federation provoked the Dominion by going through the wormhole probably need to watch the show again, because as other people have rightly pointed out you've probably missed the bits where New Bajor is wiped out for no reason other than it's there, the U.S.S. Odyssey was destroyed by a kamikaze attack, Ben Sisko was taken into custody (with Quark of course ^^), Founders inflitrated every major alpha quadrant power to spark up conflict, oh and of course the small matter of the joint Romulan/Cardassian operation (who would have started a war as they're not as fussy about such things) being stitched up and played like a cheap fiddle by the Lovok founder resulting in massive loss of life and fleets being crippled. I'd ask if I need to go on, but even if you said yes I'd just point at episodes.
Were the Federation perfect? No. Did the Dominion start it? Yes. Did the Feds have to do the odd "dodgy" thing to survive. You're damn right.
Also, to the person who posted this thread initially, or anyone else who'd like to answer (seriously mind you), let's look at this from a different angle with the question: Why must the Federation antagonise the Borg deliberately by not allowing themselves to be totally conquered and assimilated into the collective?
What we're seeing here is basically a general description of war from a couple of different sides of the fence. No-one can turn around and say that the Dominion didn't start the war really, as the Federation effectively being lured into taking a Vorta spy on board the station at the end of Season 2 (but for the fact they busted her) hardly shows the Dominion up as having noble motives. However, anyone with a perfect set of morals couldn't condone the fact that the Federation killed millions of Jem'Hadar and Vorta and the odd founder either. That's what war's about, a time of conflict where moral values have to go out of the window sometimes if you want to stay alive.
However, that said, the people who are saying that the Federation provoked the Dominion by going through the wormhole probably need to watch the show again, because as other people have rightly pointed out you've probably missed the bits where New Bajor is wiped out for no reason other than it's there, the U.S.S. Odyssey was destroyed by a kamikaze attack, Ben Sisko was taken into custody (with Quark of course ^^), Founders inflitrated every major alpha quadrant power to spark up conflict, oh and of course the small matter of the joint Romulan/Cardassian operation (who would have started a war as they're not as fussy about such things) being stitched up and played like a cheap fiddle by the Lovok founder resulting in massive loss of life and fleets being crippled. I'd ask if I need to go on, but even if you said yes I'd just point at episodes.
Were the Federation perfect? No. Did the Dominion start it? Yes. Did the Feds have to do the odd "dodgy" thing to survive. You're damn right.
Also, to the person who posted this thread initially, or anyone else who'd like to answer (seriously mind you), let's look at this from a different angle with the question: Why must the Federation antagonise the Borg deliberately by not allowing themselves to be totally conquered and assimilated into the collective?
The sad truth is... it pretty much WAS the UFP's fault, in their role in the war... the UFP attitude kinda started the whole thing...
In "The Jem Hadar", when Eris is brought back onto DS9, Sisko makes some kind of snide and arrogant remark, along the lines of "You think the Federation will stop exploring the Gamma Quadrant?", or something to that general effect. This right there, is the problem... the UFP had plans for expansion into the GQ, and they weren't about to be dictated to, by some new force calling itself the Dominion. The Dominion already knew this, because evidently, they had been watching us for some time... THAT was why they destroyed the U.S.S. Odyssey, and again, Sisko knew it. That's why he said that in destroying the Odyssey, the Dominion is/was showing us how far they're willing to take things.
This was one problem I always had with the whole Dominion War blame game... that one line Sisko uttered to Eris. It destroys any credibility to the UFP position, because it's obvious that that was the mentality of the UFP... we just found this great new stable wormhole, and now it's our destiny and right to go boldly, and start waving our flag. They weren't going to allow the Dominion to interfere in that agenda.
Now, regarding Dominion space... I always firmly felt that their space was absolutely massive... much larger in territory than the UFP, for the sole reason that on multiple instances, we hear the Female Shapeshifter tell people about how the Dominion has ruled for millennium. That would indicate that they'd been a starfaring force, with military capability for at the very least, a good huge chunk of that time. If that's the case, I'm sure their space is vast.
In "The Jem Hadar", when Eris is brought back onto DS9, Sisko makes some kind of snide and arrogant remark, along the lines of "You think the Federation will stop exploring the Gamma Quadrant?", or something to that general effect. This right there, is the problem... the UFP had plans for expansion into the GQ, and they weren't about to be dictated to, by some new force calling itself the Dominion. The Dominion already knew this, because evidently, they had been watching us for some time... THAT was why they destroyed the U.S.S. Odyssey, and again, Sisko knew it. That's why he said that in destroying the Odyssey, the Dominion is/was showing us how far they're willing to take things.
This was one problem I always had with the whole Dominion War blame game... that one line Sisko uttered to Eris. It destroys any credibility to the UFP position, because it's obvious that that was the mentality of the UFP... we just found this great new stable wormhole, and now it's our destiny and right to go boldly, and start waving our flag. They weren't going to allow the Dominion to interfere in that agenda.
Now, regarding Dominion space... I always firmly felt that their space was absolutely massive... much larger in territory than the UFP, for the sole reason that on multiple instances, we hear the Female Shapeshifter tell people about how the Dominion has ruled for millennium. That would indicate that they'd been a starfaring force, with military capability for at the very least, a good huge chunk of that time. If that's the case, I'm sure their space is vast.
I don't think it undermines the UFP's credibility in any way. Regardless of how large Dominion space is, the GQ is far larger. The wormhole clearly opened into uncontrolled space on the GQ side. What right does the Dominion have to say that no other power should explore uncontrolled or unoccupied territories, that too peacefully? The UFP doesn't say, "Hell, we found the wormhole. We're going into the GQ, and we're gonna conquer all the worlds and peoples there!"
They said,"We found a new wormhole. We are going to explore and make peaceful contact with the people there. If there are people who do not want to make contact or are hostile, we will leave them alone and explore other regions in the GQ that are not under the Dominion."
What does the Dominion do? Incited by the fear of the Founders of all things "solid" without having had the benefit of contact with peaceful "solids", the first conclusion they draw about the UFP: "Hostile power, out to destroy, conquer and persecute us! We must stop them! We must conquer them. It is the only way. We will have order! We will use our shapeshifting abilities to infiltrate and weaken them. Then we will strike!"
They can't just say "get out of our quadrant", Sisko was right, and he had just been kidnapped and deliberately deceived!!
Disagree. Representatives of the Cardassian and Romulan states attempted to eradicate the Founders totally. That they assisted them in the preparations is immaterial, because they only discovered the plan and subverted it in self-defense--they did not originate it in order to provoke an incident. It was all Tain's brilliant idea.
After "The Die is Cast," whatever the Dominion did to Cardassia or Romulus was fair game, as far as I'm concerned. They used the Klingons as proxies in their war with the Cardassians, then once the Cardassian state was exhausted, came in with Dukat to establish peace. While their actions viz. the Klingons were dirty, creating a puppet occupation government in a state that has attempted to destroy your entire people (as far as the Dominion's concerned, anyway) is fair play as far as I can see.
Also, I'd like to make the point that genocide against a hive-mind like the Great Link is not exactly the same as the genocide of a human population. It is likely that the Founders have no hierarchy, and that every mind--if there are even such things as individual minds--in the Link either agreed with or acquiesced to the crimes of the Dominion. So killing the whole lot would be morally equivalent to killing Hitler, as opposed to killing every individual German.
And if the Dominion hadn't already demonstrated that they were perfectly willing to, in fact DESIRED to, conquer the Alpha Quadrant and other explorations of the GQ had shown how they had destroyed and wiped out entire civilizations, then maybe the Romulan/Cardassian secret strike would have been unfair. As it stands the Dominion made it clear what they were going for and the Cardie/Rommie attack was a pre-emptive strike against a clear enemy.
Nor did the Feds control the AQ side, or most of the immediate space around it. Every time DS9 faced enemies, it faced them alone, with Starfleet help always hours and usually days away.
All that the UFP had to claim the Alpha side was silly trickery, planting of a flag on a convenient piece of space junk and pretending that this amounted to something. The Dominion did the very same thing, only without the stupid pretense: they said that the GQ mouth belonged to them, so it did. Their ships were hours or days away, too.
As for the good old "who started it" question, we really know squat about the true fate of New Bajor, or of the ships the Jem'Hadar claimed to have destroyed. The Bajoran colonists "fought well for a spiritual people", but that doesn't mean they couldn't have been spiritual bandits pillaging Dominion property, or stubborn idiots who refused to listen to polite requests to stop squatting on well-established Dominion turf. You never know with these religious fanatics.
Really, knowing UFP history and Bajoran fervor, erasing of New Bajor could be seen as a perfectly justifiable preemptive strike against an invader, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Well like I've said before, DS9 was a Bajoran station, but administered by Starfleet on request by the Bajorans. So yes there is a Starfleet presence there, and that means control. How else do you define control anyway? That every inch of controlled territory should be crawling with heavily armored warships?
Besides, even if you want to say that the UFP does not really have the right to control the wormhole, the Bajorans certainly do. And they've asked Starfleet to implement that control.
No, it isn't silly trickery. It was an agreement between the Bajorans and Starfleet. And DS9 is not a piece of space junk. When the Cardassians left it for Starfleet, perhaps. But once it was up and running, DS9 could take on a small fleet of ships on its own, and we've onscreen evidence for that. No pretense there. DS9, a Bajoran station being administered by Starfleet controlling the AQ side of the wormhole, allowing ships of peace to pass through unhindered. They even allowed hundreds of Dominion warships to enter Cardassian space before raising a question.
As for whether the Dominion controls the GQ side of it, of course they don't. They didn't have a presence there at all. They didn't even know that the wormhole existed when the UFP entered the GQ. Simply saying "I have control", without having anything to back it up is really stupid pretense. At the very least, they should have stationed a few ships around the wormhole on the GQ side after having found out about it and told the AQ that they now controlled the wormhole on this side of it. Did they? Of course they didn't. Looks to me like they were just waiting for an excuse (or trying to contrive an excuse) to invade the AQ. And they turned the UFP's peaceful intentions and some rogue misled (by a Founder) Romulan/Cardassian aggressions as an excuse to do so.
Perhaps. But that's just speculation. We may as well speculate that the so called "spiritual bandits" pillaged Dominion property because the Dominion started it all by wantonly destroying some of their property. Who knows? This way you can keep speculating about speculations all the way back to the Big Bang.
Interestingly it was later established that the Federation had a directive known as the Jankata Accord that prevented them from entering into other quadrants for the purpose of territorial expansion. However, we don't know when it went into effect except that it can be reasonably assumed to have been present in 2370 as Voyager was familiar with it (the information comes from a Voyager episode).
Since it's canon I guess, technically, that means that the Federation wasn't able to expand its territory into the Gamma Quadrant. However, they could potentially recruit new planets into the Federation and expand from that point.
Pros and cons for both arguements
Pro side- I've seen a few criticisms of Dax's response to Third Talak Talarn's message.
After claiming to have eradicated an entire colony, she told him the Dominion was mistaken if they thought doing that when stop Starfleet from exploring the GQ.
The criticism being that it was undiplomatic, potentially provocative, and invited further aggression.
On the other hand, Dax's previous host was a former ambassador, and it would know laws about free space and exploration...I think...
Pro- Starfleet's contining to explore the GQ even after seeing how paranoid/agressive the Dominion can be seen as
Cons- The example where Dominion could have allowed Starfleet to close the wormhole which would accomplished the goal of protecting them from the AQ.
By acting delibrately to sabotage the effort, it can be said the Dominion wanted conflict, when if it were serious about being left alone, it would have allowed the wormhole to be shut down.
Cons- The Federation may have a vested interest in keeping the wormhole open- Bajor.
I think the discovery of the Wormhole brought commerce and business to the Bajor sector, with explorers and miners and scientists bringing their business to the station and getting permission to use it.
It must have been valuable -wer'e told the Cardassians would want the station back after discovering there was a wormhole near it.
Shutting it down would cause a loss of income for Bajor.
A strange irony-the Dominion ends allying itself with the very two powers that tried to wipe them out, and then declares war on the power that tried the most to be peaceful towards them...
Pro side- I've seen a few criticisms of Dax's response to Third Talak Talarn's message.
After claiming to have eradicated an entire colony, she told him the Dominion was mistaken if they thought doing that when stop Starfleet from exploring the GQ.
The criticism being that it was undiplomatic, potentially provocative, and invited further aggression.
On the other hand, Dax's previous host was a former ambassador, and it would know laws about free space and exploration...I think...
Pro- Starfleet's contining to explore the GQ even after seeing how paranoid/agressive the Dominion can be seen as
Cons- The example where Dominion could have allowed Starfleet to close the wormhole which would accomplished the goal of protecting them from the AQ.
By acting delibrately to sabotage the effort, it can be said the Dominion wanted conflict, when if it were serious about being left alone, it would have allowed the wormhole to be shut down.
Cons- The Federation may have a vested interest in keeping the wormhole open- Bajor.
I think the discovery of the Wormhole brought commerce and business to the Bajor sector, with explorers and miners and scientists bringing their business to the station and getting permission to use it.
It must have been valuable -wer'e told the Cardassians would want the station back after discovering there was a wormhole near it.
Shutting it down would cause a loss of income for Bajor.
A strange irony-the Dominion ends allying itself with the very two powers that tried to wipe them out, and then declares war on the power that tried the most to be peaceful towards them...
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So now we're counting people saying "I am going to kill him" as murder attempts?
(Although I think she said it in "By Inferno's Light" as a reaction to learning about his deal with the Dominion, but she says it in every second episode so it's hard to keep track. 
) The closest she got to attacking him was throwing a coffee cup at him in "Ties of Blood and Water", is that the vicious act of aggression you are referring to? 
I don't see what the difference is between "recruit new planets" and "expand territory" as far the UFP is concerned. Remember, the UFP does not do things like other imperialistic powers. They allow new planets to decide whether it is to their benefit to join the Federation and upon meeting the requirements, the planet becomes a Federation member state and is then protected by Starfleet. I don't see the difference between this and settling on a new uninhabited (by sentient life) and unclaimed planet, claiming it as a Federation world and having Starfleet protect it. In both cases it is expansion of territory as well as "recruitment" of new planets.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
What actions did the Dominion undertake regarding the Alpha/Beta quadrants?
"The Donminion's first action was to kidnap federation citizens, destroy a federation capital ship AND to kill everybody on New Bajor - a bajoran colony - which is GENOCIDE. And all of this, unprovoked.
Then the Dominion tried to icite war between the Federation and the Tzencheti, started a klingon-cardassian war and then a klingon-federation war.
Then the Dominion gained power on cardassia and brought a massive invasion fleet into the alpha quadrant.
Then the Dominion tried to blow up the bajoran sun, destroying everything in the system - including Bajor, populated by BILLIONS OF BAJORANS - the word "GENOCIDE" is not enough to describe the ATROCITY the dominion attempted.
Then the Dominion attacked a federation space station."
The Federation exploring the gamma quadrant is justified as an attempt to learn as much as possible about a powerful and extremely aggressive Dominion - never mind the fact that the Dominion had no right to ban the Federation from exploring this quadrant (lagely NOT under dominion control) or the fact that the Federation did more pure exploring than military reconnaissance in the gamma quadrant.
Mining the wormhole was also justified - the Dominion just tried to kill BILLIONS of bajorans! If anything, the Federation mined the wormhole much too late - it should have been mined since DS9:"The Jem'hadar".
One can even make a case that the Cardassian/Romulan attempt to kill the founders was justified, considering the nature of the great link; but then again, one could make a very good case against it.
"The Donminion's first action was to kidnap federation citizens, destroy a federation capital ship AND to kill everybody on New Bajor - a bajoran colony - which is GENOCIDE. And all of this, unprovoked.
Then the Dominion tried to icite war between the Federation and the Tzencheti, started a klingon-cardassian war and then a klingon-federation war.
Then the Dominion gained power on cardassia and brought a massive invasion fleet into the alpha quadrant.
Then the Dominion tried to blow up the bajoran sun, destroying everything in the system - including Bajor, populated by BILLIONS OF BAJORANS - the word "GENOCIDE" is not enough to describe the ATROCITY the dominion attempted.
Then the Dominion attacked a federation space station."
The Federation exploring the gamma quadrant is justified as an attempt to learn as much as possible about a powerful and extremely aggressive Dominion - never mind the fact that the Dominion had no right to ban the Federation from exploring this quadrant (lagely NOT under dominion control) or the fact that the Federation did more pure exploring than military reconnaissance in the gamma quadrant.
Mining the wormhole was also justified - the Dominion just tried to kill BILLIONS of bajorans! If anything, the Federation mined the wormhole much too late - it should have been mined since DS9:"The Jem'hadar".
One can even make a case that the Cardassian/Romulan attempt to kill the founders was justified, considering the nature of the great link; but then again, one could make a very good case against it.
Wow a post I made when I was very,very,very sleep and in no state to be online has generated so much.
Anyway I'm glad to see I was making sense.
What started the war wasn't the destruction of New Bajor or the Oddessy. Nor was it the attempt to destroy the Founders. What started the war pure and simple was the mining of the wormhole.
It doesn't matter what the intention of the Dominion was. It doesn't matter either if they were sending armed ships to Cardassia. That was their territory. That is why the Federation did nothing to save the Maquis.
When Sisko mined the Wormhole Starfleet knew how the Dominion would react. When the Dominion sent a force to stop the blockading of wormhole (a responbile action) The UFP and the Klingon Empire sent ships into Dominion territory and attacked Shipyards.
There is a difference between a cold war which was happening up until the mining of the wormhole to actual war which was caused by the Federation. The Dominion were responsible mostly for the Cold War. The Federation and the Klingons were responsible for the war that happened.
Now I know you guys are going to go sideways with this so answer this question. What would any resonable nation/state do on Earth if their only source/link to their main territory/sea was cut off?
My answer is they would declare war. Israel did that in '67 the Dominion did that in 2373.
Anyway I'm glad to see I was making sense.
What started the war wasn't the destruction of New Bajor or the Oddessy. Nor was it the attempt to destroy the Founders. What started the war pure and simple was the mining of the wormhole.
It doesn't matter what the intention of the Dominion was. It doesn't matter either if they were sending armed ships to Cardassia. That was their territory. That is why the Federation did nothing to save the Maquis.
When Sisko mined the Wormhole Starfleet knew how the Dominion would react. When the Dominion sent a force to stop the blockading of wormhole (a responbile action) The UFP and the Klingon Empire sent ships into Dominion territory and attacked Shipyards.
There is a difference between a cold war which was happening up until the mining of the wormhole to actual war which was caused by the Federation. The Dominion were responsible mostly for the Cold War. The Federation and the Klingons were responsible for the war that happened.
Now I know you guys are going to go sideways with this so answer this question. What would any resonable nation/state do on Earth if their only source/link to their main territory/sea was cut off?
My answer is they would declare war. Israel did that in '67 the Dominion did that in 2373.
Sure, you can say that the Feds mining the wormhole was the first act of the official war but would there have BEEN an official war if the Dominion hadn't started the Cold War with their various acts? No.
They brought it on themselves, did they honestly think that the Feds would sit back and do nothing while they built up a massive invasion force RIGHT BEFORE THEIR EYES? Anyone with half a brain could tell what was going to happen if they hadn't mined the wormhole.
They brought it on themselves, did they honestly think that the Feds would sit back and do nothing while they built up a massive invasion force RIGHT BEFORE THEIR EYES? Anyone with half a brain could tell what was going to happen if they hadn't mined the wormhole.
No it wasn't. What started the war was the direct act of aggression by the Dominion against DS9. Purer and simpler.
Yes it does. The ships weren't being sent only through their territory. The ships were being sent through the Bajoran wormhole, which was being controlled by DS9, a Bajoran spacestation under Starfleet administration. And I suppose you're going to argue that it "doesn't matter what the intention of the Dominion was" when they infiltrated the AQ and caused a lot of disruption and war?
I'll use your own logic. When the Dominion started sending far more warships than was required to defend Cardassia, they knew how the UFP would react. When the UFP decided to take just one action against the Dominion (a very responsible one given that they controlled the wormhole and had the right to do whatever with it with Bajoran and the Prophets' blessings) by mining the wormhole, the Dominion invades Bajoran space and directly attacks DS9, a Starfleet administered Bajoran spacestation.
Tell me, which do you think is a real act of war?
Infiltration, causing dissent, causing war and directly attacking a spacestation or mining a wormhole which you control anyway?
The Dominion were mostly responsible for the Cold War. The Dominion was responsible for the war that happened. Why should the Dominion build up warships more than is required to protect Cardassia? After having infiltrated the AQ, caused dissent and war amongst the AQ, what possible reason could the Dominion have to cause a massive military buildup on the borders of another power?
Your question is not complete. The real question is: What would an irresponsible nation/state(A) do on Earth if their only source/link, which goes through the territory of another nation state(B), to one of their many territories after having a massive military buildup after having infiltrated and generally worked against nation state B, is blocked by nation state B in its own territory which it has every right to do, after having allowed more than significant number of military warships to pass through unhindered? Irresponsible state A attacks responsible state B. The Dominion started the war by directly attacking DS9 and the UFP.
Territory they gained by sponsoring a rogue Gul's coup over the legitimate government.
Much, much truth.
Sisko being kidnapped was his first experience of the Dominion, and in fact the Federation's first experience of the Dominion proper (although unofficial, as Talak'Talan's ultimatum of "Get the hell out of the GQ or we'll kill you all, we already wiped out the Bajorans" was the first AQ contact).
How the Federation can in any way be seen to have initiated things is beyond me. Everything else came as a response to that.
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