The different between Constitution and Miranda Class

[Omega_Glory]

^^^^Are these blueprints canon material or just someone's fantasy. The damage caused by the rollbar phasers was no greater that caused by the Enterprise's phasers; so one would have to conclude that they are the same type of phaser. Especially when you can see in the film that they originate from the sides of the pod...not from the ends.

The pulse or gatling style phaser effects were the same on both ships. Watch the film again and you'll see.

The Reliant has to cram all the required machinery into an expanded saucer section. There is no neck or secondary hull to house anything. That is why the impulse area looks bigger....it houses more than just the impulse engine.

 

[ShinRa Actual]

^^^^Are these blueprints canon material or just someone's fantasy. The damage caused by the rollbar phasers was no greater that caused by the Enterprise's phasers; so one would have to conclude that they are the same type of phaser. Especially when you can see in the film that they originate from the sides of the pod...not from the ends.

The pulse or gatling style phaser effects were the same on both ships. Watch the film again and you'll see.

The Reliant has to cram all the required machinery into an expanded saucer section. There is no neck or secondary hull to house anything. That is why the impulse area looks bigger....it houses more than just the impulse engine.

Those blueprints are fanwork as far as I know.

There's two reasons why most fans think the Reliant had some manner of high-powered weapons on the rollbar, I think... 1) They see those weapons tearing into the Enterprise, something that's a pretty memorable part of the movie during the first attack, and later when they blast up the Torpedo bay. But as it's already been mentioned, that overlooks that the Enterprise did the same kind of devestating damage with her own shots. The key factor is in all instances in TWOK, the ships were unsheilded. 2) There's probably the unspoken question as to why Reliant was shooting those weapons rather than the 'standard' phaser mounts located in the same place as Enterprise's; The unconcious leap of logic being that if Reliant was using those weapons, it's because they were 'better'. Just some ameteur psychoanalysis on my part.

Do you have any screencaps showing the ball-turrets on the Rollbar? I did a quick search of the model shots I could find, and I don't see them, but I didn't find any real close up shots for that area either.

As for the size of the 'housing' for the Impulse engine...that goes into whether or not those domes are the oft-mentioned "Impulse deflection crystal" or tied into the Warp drive...or both....or something else.

 

[Timo]

Well, the preferred ENT explanation is for some sort of warp field adjustment doodad. Which might be the same thing as "impulse deflection crystal", really - it facilitates impulse by slightly deflecting the warp field so that it performs its famous, almost-canonical function of reducing inertial mass (see DS9 "Emissary" and read the TNG Tech Manual)...

Anyway, Bernd Schneider's site has some closeups on the Brattain model, including a shot of the roll bar pod. On this link (cut and paste), look at the lower right photo. http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/mechanics/brattain1.jpg

After spotting the pimples there, you can find them on the original Reliant as well: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/other/reliant.jpg

TrekCore offers this view of the nebula battle: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch13/twok0982.jpg

Note here the constant white glow from the front end of the pod. Even though this cap makes it look as if the phaser beam comes from the front end, it's actually equally possible to say it comes from the side pimple. It definitely comes from the side pimples in the first battle: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch7/twok0454.jpg and http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch7/twok0459.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Allow me to shed a little light on that mystery for you Praetor, the dome on the bottom of the Miranda Class is actually not an Impulse Deflection Crystal but a chamber to control the Matter/Antimatter Reaction for the Warp Core. You can also see the location for the Navigational Deflectors in this schematic (one of the original topics of this tread). They are the two "ram air" style scoops seen on the bottom of the vessel.

http://s699.photobucket.com/albums/vv356/nimitzco/Miranda%20Class%20Schematics/?action=view&current=SectionViewEngineering.jpg

As for the Phaser Cannons, they are directly powered by the plasma from the Warp Core, making them more powerfull than the phaser banks traditionally seen on the saucer section of and secondary hulls of certain Starfleet vessels of that era. Here is a schematic that illustrates this point

http://s699.photobucket.com/albums/...?action=view&current=PhaserCannonAssembly.jpg

You can also see a Jefferies Tube in this schematic that continues onto the weapons pod that allows for crew access if necessary.

Ah, thanks Nimitz CO. I don't have those plans and haven't had the chance to study them in depth. All of that seems plausible to me.

^^^^Are these blueprints canon material or just someone's fantasy.

Well, the whole show is made up. I'd hardly call fanon 'fantasy.'

The damage caused by the rollbar phasers was no greater that caused by the Enterprise's phasers; so one would have to conclude that they are the same type of phaser. Especially when you can see in the film that they originate from the sides of the pod...not from the ends.

The pulse or gatling style phaser effects were the same on both ships. Watch the film again and you'll see.

All the more reason to assume that the actual ends of the phaser cannons actually are something special, IMO, since the beams fired from the side.

Also, being the only time we see TOS phasers fired in the films, it's inconclusive whether phasers would have fired like solid beams as they often did on TOS during 'normal' circumstances.

The Reliant has to cram all the required machinery into an expanded saucer section. There is no neck or secondary hull to house anything. That is why the impulse area looks bigger....it houses more than just the impulse engine.

While you're definitely onto something there, I'd argue that the Miranda probably crams less than one might think - both because it's not that much smaller, and also because some features were no doubt 'deleted' that might have been present on 1701.

There's two reasons why most fans think the Reliant had some manner of high-powered weapons on the rollbar, I think... 1) They see those weapons tearing into the Enterprise, something that's a pretty memorable part of the movie during the first attack, and later when they blast up the Torpedo bay. But as it's already been mentioned, that overlooks that the Enterprise did the same kind of devastating damage with her own shots. The key factor is in all instances in TWOK, the ships were unshielded. 2) There's probably the unspoken question as to why Reliant was shooting those weapons rather than the 'standard' phaser mounts located in the same place as Enterprise's; The unconscious leap of logic being that if Reliant was using those weapons, it's because they were 'better'. Just some amateur psychoanalysis on my part.

A fair enough analysis of the original source of the 'mythos' surrounding them, IMO.

Well, the preferred ENT explanation is for some sort of warp field adjustment doodad. Which might be the same thing as "impulse deflection crystal", really - it facilitates impulse by slightly deflecting the warp field so that it performs its famous, almost-canonical function of reducing inertial mass (see DS9 "Emissary" and read the TNG Tech Manual)...

Say, I like that. It could, of course, also tie power into the impulse engines from the warp core. And I can't help but think it's not a coincidence that the crystal disappears when the improved impulse engines with driver coils were said to have been introduced on the Ambassador.

Studying the first image, I have to conclude that the phaser fire coming from the side of the bar units was no VFX accident - it was designed into the model. There are yellow markers there analogous to the yellow ablative squares that surround all other turret phasers.

And we still have a potential for the rollbar phaser 'caps' themselves being something special.

 

[ShinRa Actual]

Looking over those screencaps, i'm assuming you mean the pimples shown on top of the two 'fins' ...but one of the TWOK caps seems to show the phaser blast originating from below the fin-pimples. I have to say this is an instance where think it's an issue where the VFX are going to give that kind of inconsistency...but hey, at least the shots are all coming from the same general area (unlike some episodes that I could mention...) If anything, all the VFX shots seem to show the phaser blast originating just beyond any physical part of the ship, but if you line up the various screencaps, the origination point seems to be the more popularly assumed endcap mounts.

While you're definitely onto something there, I'd argue that the Miranda probably crams less than one might think - both because it's not that much smaller, and also because some features were no doubt 'deleted' that might have been present on 1701.

That's always been my conclusion; the Constitutions are built as long range, long term explorers. Lots of space devoted to crew consumables, crew morale, sensor equipment, labs, etc. The Mirandas seem to be more...pedestrian. They may have most of the basic equipment of a Constitution; The engines, weapons, sensors...but not the fuel, food, labs, and other facilities (no Arboretum, for example) you really need for more ambitious missions. In fact, Reliant's mission at the start of TWOK seemed pretty short-ranged and (dulling so) routine. Likewise, the begining of ST4 has the Saratoga's captain stating that she's on mission "Patrolling the Neutral Zone", not out and about on an exploratory mission.

 

[Praetor]

Agreed with that, ShinRa.

 

[Omega_Glory]

2) There's probably the unspoken question as to why Reliant was shooting those weapons rather than the 'standard' phaser mounts located in the same place as Enterprise's; The unconcious leap of logic being that if Reliant was using those weapons, it's because they were 'better'. Just some ameteur psychoanalysis on my part.

Kahn thought the roll bar phasers were just neato man! Thats why he used them instead.

Probably a more accurate reason would be they looked better on film than the standard pedestrian-type phasers that had been shown on Trek all through TOS. When I first saw the ship in '82, I thought the whole design was cool, and the roll bar setup was just part of the image of the ship. Just because they're mounted in a different spot doesn't necessarily mean they are some kind of heavy duty phasers. The damage was no greater than standard mounts.....so I'd say they're the same. If they were some kinda mega phaser, they probably would have mounted more of them.....some on the hull too.

I do agree that the Reliant type ships were a multi role vessel, so it would make sense that they have fewer systems than a Constitution class vessel would, but everything still has to be put in the saucer section which makes that rear section rather large looking. And their power systems are vulnerable whenever the saucer section is hit due to explosive effects. An enemy would have to be a bit more selective in his targeting with a Constitution.

Praetor: Yea, I know the show is made up, but it has a history, timeline, canon or whatever you want to call it. Fan assumptions are not part of that.

As far as the ends of the pods go, they could be spotlights for all we know. Hell, the BOP had four spotlights on the front of the wings.

 

[Praetor]

Praetor: Yea, I know the show is made up, but it has a history, timeline, canon or whatever you want to call it. Fan assumptions are not part of that.

I know, but calling it 'fantasy' seemed to take a disrespectful tone towards the fan work. I don't have any personal involvement in those blueprints, but it's still nice work.

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Probably a more accurate reason would be they looked better on film than the standard pedestrian-type phasers that had been shown on Trek all through TOS.[...]

The damage was no greater than standard mounts.....so I'd say they're the same.

I took this to just be an update (or refit if you prefer) of the SFX we saw in TOS. After all, we get the same effect from the Enterprise when she fires her phasers. In TOS, when the Enterprise fired phasers, the phasers pulsated as they fired (at least as I recall, it may just have been the TV reception ). No phaser fire in TMP and then in TWOK, we finally get to see phaser fire and it is similar to the pulsating effect, but because we are closer to the action, we can see the reason for the pulse.

The fact that the damage was the same would seem to support this idea (albeit not definitively).

YMMV

 

[ShinRa Actual]

In TOS, they're pretty solid blue streams. In TWOK, they're a series of shorter individual bursts. In TNG/DS9/VOY/Ent, the phasers are all continuous streams again, albiet with some pulsing going on in those streams.

 

[JNG]

In TOS, the ship-mounted phaser effects were seen variously as bolts, blue beams, and red beams. In TOS-R, they are always blue. In TNG, they are red. In DS9, they are reddish-orange, and the bolts from the pulse phasers are perhaps a bit lighter. On Voyager, they are still reddish but moving toward orange-yellow.

The TNG Technical Manual claims that a standard phaser is capable of a continuous-beam or pulsed firing configuration. It suggests that maximum dwell time is typically the best approach for maximum effect on the target. It seems the Defiant phasers were developed to take advantage of the fact that the leading edge of the beam has the greatest effect without any of the drawbacks that pulsed firing must have had.

 

[Praetor]

Perhaps the movie phaser turrets were an early attempt at being able to hold the charge longer, similar to what was later done with the Defiant? Then again, 'BoT' has those 'depth charge' phasers that seemed a lot like that, too...

 

[Timo]

It seems the Defiant phasers were developed to take advantage of the fact that the leading edge of the beam has the greatest effect without any of the drawbacks that pulsed firing must have had.

OTOH, since the ship was intended to fight the Borg, and its guns were probably optimized for the purpose as well, pulses would have the specific advantage of posing an adaptation challenge to the Borg. That is, each could be tuned a bit differently.

Whether this mod was crucial in penetrating Dominion shields in "The Search", or whether the guns of the tough little ship simply packed more punch than those of the Odyssey regardless of the pulse nature, is unknown. We might also speculate that Starfleet had time to analyze the shield configurations of the Dominion attack ships after the Odyssey loss, and subsequently all Starfleet phasers became incrementally more effective against them, including the phasers of the Defiant. Or we might assume that Captain Keogh fired to deter, not to kill, as per his likely rules of engagement...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

Perhaps the movie phaser turrets were an early attempt at being able to hold the charge longer, similar to what was later done with the Defiant? Then again, 'BoT' has those 'depth charge' phasers that seemed a lot like that, too...

BoT was made before photon torpedoes were put into the technical notes. (In fact, BoT is why we got photon torpedoes, phasers were already becoming too magical). From a strict continuity point of view, we're supposed to think that Hollywood got it wrong here, and those really were photon torpedoes instead. (This issue hits again in "Errand of Mercy", then never shows up in Trek ever again. Dispersal attacks become the province of photon torpedoes.)

 

[Vance]

Do you have any screencaps showing the ball-turrets on the Rollbar? I did a quick search of the model shots I could find, and I don't see them, but I didn't find any real close up shots for that area either.

Having analyized the rollbar turrets several times, there is a row of ball turrets that run down the front, side, and aft of the housing, mostly wrapped into a shroud. When they fire on the Enterprise in TWOK, you'll see the phaser blasts 'adjust' down the line in a way very similar to how the phaser collators of TNG work.

If we argue that the rollbars are new systems somehow, they're not mega-phasers, they seem to be the first generation of collated phasers, if we're just going off the obviously error-prone VFX shots.

As for the size of the 'housing' for the Impulse engine...that goes into whether or not those domes are the oft-mentioned "Impulse deflection crystal" or tied into the Warp drive...or both....or something else.

Going off memory, the only real write-up of the blue crystals impulse deflection crystal is a power-coupling hub that links the impulse and warp drives together, allowing them to share power. It's hard to say why the Reliant would have TWO of these (one dorsal, one ventral), mind you, though the entire impulse assembly seems cruder than the sleek one on the Enterprise, possibly hinting at a more inefficient design?

 

[Praetor]

Perhaps the movie phaser turrets were an early attempt at being able to hold the charge longer, similar to what was later done with the Defiant? Then again, 'BoT' has those 'depth charge' phasers that seemed a lot like that, too...

BoT was made before photon torpedoes were put into the technical notes. (In fact, BoT is why we got photon torpedoes, phasers were already becoming too magical). From a strict continuity point of view, we're supposed to think that Hollywood got it wrong here, and those really were photon torpedoes instead. (This issue hits again in "Errand of Mercy", then never shows up in Trek ever again. Dispersal attacks become the province of photon torpedoes.)

I'd, frankly, be perfectly happy to pretend that Kirk ordered torpedoes instead of phasers to proximity and dispersal mode and be done with it.

 

[Omega_Glory]

Concerning BOT, I am perfectly happy to assume the "proximity phasers" were the first attempt at a Defiant type pulse phaser weapon. Then, the R&D people developed the beam phasers we see later and they somehow were superior; so pulse phasers were put on the back burner until TNG era when they were perfected.

Fits continuity and makes sense.

My take on TWOK phaser effects is that the movie style ships had an upgraded phaser that could fire a single solid beam like TOS or had a mode where it could fire multiple phaser beams of a lower power level with the same arming energy. An either or situation.

Fits continuity and makes sense.

 

[Praetor]

I guess it all depends how much you want to admit is a reflection of real-world developments of the series, and how much can be retconned away.

 

[Gagarin]

I guess it all depends how much you want to admit is a reflection of real-world developments of the series, and how much can be retconned away.

Which I think is a primary tension between many Universe-based fictional works. People draw the lines at all points.

Onto the fun:

Miranda - designed to be simpler to build, shorter range, and able to do single missions at a time. Possibly a ship you send because you don't want to waste a Constitution, but you need some room for mission payload. Because of it's weapons you'd want it patrolling hot spots or in a fleet engagement. But it doesn't have the damage control capabilities or endurance of a Constitution.

Constitutions, though a Starship like the Mirandas, would get the BEST sensors, computer, data storage, communications and linguistic facilities, and even some of the best food prep and storage... and best rec rooms.

Why are there Miranda's years later? Well, probably because it's still able to do that shorter range, limited scope mission profile. And it's still cheap to build. They could be easier to maintain.

On the other hand, the Constitution isn't able to perform the same roles it did - requirements for galaxy exploration and ship of the line keep increasing! And it's too expensive to have around doing limited missions, because there's all that equipment you don't need anymore (science labs, sensors, linguistics).

I suppose they probably did have a bunch of Constitutions slowly die off - but if I were Starfleet, I would have deactivated my Constitutions to make good on the Klingon peace treaty so I could keep building Excellsior class ships =).

Why did the Reliant do so well?
I think
- 1.) First shot
- 2.) As a training ship, the Enterprise would have novice crew, but I think they'd also have LESS crew than a Constitution normally would have. So you have fewer experienced engineers (and there's a few older ones in the bunch, it's not just Scotty!) than normal, and you have a bunch of cadets, so that really puts a damper on your damage control.
- 3.) As a training ship, the Enterprise may have been pretty brittle at this point. It's put out to pasture. Maybe the phasers don't put out as much juice as they used to, or maybe the hull plates and the shields aren't as effective as they once were. Perhaps they're externally similiar to Reliant but Reliant's systems are 18% better. You don't nessesarily upgrade your training ship's phaser banks or shield generators to the new design specs when it comes in after a cruise. You send those resources to new ships on the front line when THEY come in. **of course, I can also see that Starfleet may have a rotating training ship thing**

^^I think there's a lot stacked against this particular Constitution class ship, in this situation.