The Cogenitor

[eyeresist]

I feel that a lot of the criticism of Archer in this episode is based on naivity. I mean, why don't we make Saudi Arabia give women equal rights? The exact same reason Archer doesn't want to interfere with Vissian culture: it will create a diplomatic shit storm, quite possibly lead to worse oppression, and also possibly to armed conflict. In the real world, diplomacy is about keeping a dialog going. Forcibly going against another country's laws and culture can create hostility or even shut the dialog down completely, so should always be regarded as an extreme and last solution.

 

[DonIago]

Indeed. I find the best way to improve what I find lacking in others is to try to set a good example, not to get in their face about it.

 

[locutus101]

If your race depends on rape and slavery to survive, maybe you deserve to go extinct.
There were other ways the cogenitors could've participated in helping the future of their race without them being nameless slaves.
I do wonder what happened with the cogenitor babies. I assume the parents didn't raise them, not with what we saw of them. I also doubt the cogenitors were allowed to raise them, as they were too busy being shuttled from place to place for breeding. I figure they were raised in concentration camp style barricks by impersonal caretakers who taught them to be submissive from birth.

Well, we can guess that the cogenitor babies, were not given a name, an education, not even taught how to read, and they were likely kept separated from each other, isolated in their rooms with nothing to do, IE a horrible life. They probably never got outside of their assigned homes. Even our dogs gets better treatments.

 

[Andrews]

I always wished they followed up on this. Seeing both the Enterprise and the Vissians were new to exploring and it was heavily talked about in the episode that they return the visit. I would have loved to see an episode or two exploring the possibility of reform.

 

[Nyotarules]

I assume based on the rest of ST canon the Vissians never joined the Federation. The congenitors rose up in revolt, refused to share their services and so the population died a natural death

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

At the beginning of the alternate reality-set novel The Assassination Game, Nadja Luther (β) greets would-be game players by saying, "Ladies, gentlemen, hermaphrodites, cogenitors, and asexual life-forms"", suggesting a) that there may have been other races with cogenitors as well and aa) therefore she didn't wish to leave anyone out, or b) that a Vissian cogenitor may have been among her audience at the time.

So things may have gotten better for them since...

 

[uniderth]

I would have loved to see an episode or two exploring the possibility of reform.

I would prefer having humanity have to face up to the fact that not everyone is going to conform to their ideals. Showing the aliens reform (i.e. having those uncivilized backwater savages come to the path of true light and knowledge) would be just another ethnocentric "yeay hyoomanzez winz agin" episode. We always want to be tolerant of those who don't disagree with us.

Muh humanz!

 

[Andrews]

That's a fair assessment, and that's exactly what we got in the episode right? To me it showed that Archer was a good captain, coming to the same conclusion as you. But I'm an idealist like my man Charles. Not so much "hoo-mans win again" more a bit of "if's not right to me, it's not right at all."

 

[locutus101]

I would prefer having humanity have to face up to the fact that not everyone is going to conform to their ideals. Showing the aliens reform (i.e. having those uncivilized backwater savages come to the path of true light and knowledge) would be just another ethnocentric "yeay hyoomanzez winz agin" episode. We always want to be tolerant of those who don't disagree with us.

Muh humanz!

I disagree. This was an atrocious situation no matter how you look at it. Only in the worst kind of regimes would a segment of the population be treated as badly as these cogenitors. You're not supposed to have normalized relations with these kinds of sobs.

 

[uniderth]

I disagree. This was an atrocious situation no matter how you look at it. Only in the worst kind of regimes would a segment of the population be treated as badly as these cogenitors. You're not supposed to have normalized relations with these kinds of sobs.

Clearly it was not atrocious to someone, or it not have been the dominant cultural practice. What is viewed as good in a society depends upon its social values, which are largely arbitrary. You have your views becasue you were indoctrinated by early 21st century Earth values(apologies for the oversimplification). But if you have been indoctrinated by their views, that practice would be normal and good. But to dictate that another society with different values must conform to your views is that same attitude that caused the destruction of many cultures across the globe. It's the same attitude that viewed native Americans as savages and worthy of extermination.

"Those backwards idiots. Don't they now how to run a proper society?"

"Oh, well, we'll just give them small pox ridden blankets/force their children into our schools/bomb them out of existence."

Q: "The same old story, all over again."

 

[locutus101]

Clearly it was not atrocious to someone, or it not have been the dominant cultural practice. What is viewed as good in a society depends upon its social values, which are largely arbitrary. You have your views becasue you were indoctrinated by early 21st century Earth values(apologies for the oversimplification). But if you have been indoctrinated by their views, that practice would be normal and good. But to dictate that another society with different values must conform to your views is that same attitude that caused the destruction of many cultures across the globe. It's the same attitude that viewed native Americans as savages and worthy of extermination.

"Those backwards idiots. Don't they now how to run a proper society?"

"Oh, well, we'll just give them small pox ridden blankets/force their children into our schools/bomb them out of existence."

Q: "The same old story, all over again."

I disagree with this. People who treat some of their citizens that way, be it a gender, a race or a subculture, are barbarous and they don't deserve the honor of normalized relations.Archer is an imbecile and Trip had the right attitude in that episode. Archer is a coward for abdicating his duty to grant asylum in a situation like this. The cogenitor was on Enterprise and asking for asylum. Archer is the one that caused her death here not trip. He's a senseless bastard that doesn't even have the courage to admit his faults.

 

[uniderth]

You are free to feel that way. But just remember:
The Native Americans,
The Mayans,
The Incans,
The Celts,
The Na,
etc. etc. etc.

It's ironic that bring up the word "barbarous." It was becasue of the ethnocentricity of the Romans that we even have that word.

 

[DonIago]

I think we're doing a great job of justifying the Prime Directive right here.

 

[locutus101]

You are free to feel that way. But just remember:
The Native Americans,
The Mayans,
The Incans,
The Celts,
The Na,
etc. etc. etc.

It's ironic that bring up the word "barbarous." It was becasue of the ethnocentricity of the Romans that we even have that word.

The Native Americans have been massacred and the survivors confined in reserves. The others don't exist anymore.

What's your point?

 

[locutus101]

I think we're doing a great job of justifying the Prime Directive right here.

We're not.

 

[DonIago]

Really? Because you seem to be espousing exactly the sort of "we know what's best for everyone and will find ways to enforce our views" mentality that contributed to the creation of the directive in the first place.

 

[Anna Yolei]

We have absolutely no idea how the cogenitors lived back on Vissia. For all we know, they were pampered and fawned over. Assuming they are slaves just because of this one episode is sloppy thinking at best.

Being a Wordforger, I'm sure you remember many of @Muad Dib 's discussions on how not all slaves were whipped and that many considered slaves to be part of their family.

It didn't make them any less enslaved. And while I agree that maybe another episode digging more into their culture would be in order or perhaps even a line mentioning that the enzyme the congenitors create have not been successfully recreated to make some more urgency, being kind to a captive doesn't make it any less easier, IMO. That's Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Being a Wordforger, I'm sure you remember many of @Muad Dib 's discussions on how not all slaves were whipped and that many considered slaves to be part of their family.

I am not a member of WordForge (whatever that is), never have been, and don't ever plan to be.

 

[Anna Yolei]

All of the above being said:

I feel that a lot of the criticism of Archer in this episode is based on naivity. I mean, why don't we make Saudi Arabia give women equal rights? The exact same reason Archer doesn't want to interfere with Vissian culture: it will create a diplomatic shit storm, quite possibly lead to worse oppression, and also possibly to armed conflict. In the real world, diplomacy is about keeping a dialog going. Forcibly going against another country's laws and culture can create hostility or even shut the dialog down completely, so should always be regarded as an extreme and last solution.

That's the first time I've ever seen anyone bring this up in a discussion on this episode, ever, in 14 years.

I know @Kevin Thomas Riley mentioned up thread that he didn't see why this episode was so loved by fandom, but this discussion here I think highlights part of it. The execution of concept aside, it does what good Star Trek should do: bring up discussion about our own world. It's basically the closest we get to a "Tuvix" or "Measure of a Man" or (insert any given DS9 episode here) that Enterprise has.

It's not great in retrospect, but it does make one think. I'll take more of this and less of Precious Cargo, please.

 

[Anna Yolei]

I am not a member of WordForge (whatever that is), never have been, and don't ever plan to be.

I swear, there's a guy there with your exact avatar there and even went by this name for a while. Maybe it was someone taking the piss for ya. :/

My mistake regardless, but the rest of it still stands.