The Borg Queen

[Sisu]

WalkinMan said:
1. Locutus/Picard was not assimilated in typical fashion, because he was to be a 'speaker' of sorts and 'not just another mindless drone' which is how direct assimilation may have worked. They wanted to keep his individuality more intact so they assimilated him slowly.

In First Contact, we see assimilated (by nanoprobes) ex-Enterprise crew waiting to have arms, eyes etc cut off and replaced with implants.

So nanoprobes only Borgify a person (grey skin, removal of hair, merging with the Collective). They then need to be Borgified with attachments.

Also in FC we saw at least one crewman being assimilated who KNEW he was being assimilated. He said, "Captain...please..." and Picard shot him to spare him full assimilation.

So it is entirely possible that the scene in BoBW where Picard sheds a tear is a combination of invasion by the nanoprobes and a physical addition.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Isn't it wonderful how Phlox knew what a nanoprobe was, they worked slower and he almost figured out a cure... Bev is still pretty.

 

[Nebusj]

startrekwatcher said:
It was also VOY that stated that the Borg replenish their numbers exclusively through assimilation of other species.

Did they seriously? Do you remember which episode?

(I don't mean to sound snarky or like I specifically disbelieve you; just that I'm surprised they'd actually say something like that since it is such a bad idea for the Borg to adapt if they have their own self-interest in mind.)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seven was saying that sexual reproduction was inefficient.

She might have been talking to pregnant B'Elanna? I can't quite recall.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Nebusj said:

startrekwatcher said:
It was also VOY that stated that the Borg replenish their numbers exclusively through assimilation of other species.

Did they seriously? Do you remember which episode?

(I don't mean to sound snarky or like I specifically disbelieve you; just that I'm surprised they'd actually say something like that since it is such a bad idea for the Borg to adapt if they have their own self-interest in mind.)

S4 "Revulsion". And then in subsequent episodes of the series she talks about assimilating children and the maturation chambers.

 

[Unicron]

Kegek said:
My point exactly. When initially concieved in "Q Who?", the opposite was the case - Borg were born, not solely assimilated.

In hindsight, why should we assume that Riker's description of the Borg "nurseries" was accurate? I mean, I don't doubt that's what the writers of QW intended them to be when the ep was made. But they could simply be a version of the maturation chamber, since VOY implied that assimilated children were aged in them.

Riker's speculation about the infants being implanted is plausible, but it's also based solely on a visual inspection. Not an actual medical one. So in fairness, I think it's possible that Riker's best guess may not have been accurate.

startrekwatcher said:

Furthermore, the "Descent" Borg who became individuals had no memory of a former life. So either they were all natural Borg for the lack of a better term or they were assimilated victims whose memories and identities were purged during the assimilation process.

Well, that's one possibility. But we don't know whether any of them had recovered memories, because it was never mentioned. It wasn't relevant to the story. So we can't speculate very easily.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Unicron said:
In hindsight, why should we assume that Riker's description of the Borg "nurseries" was accurate? I mean, I don't doubt that's what the writers of QW intended them to be when the ep was made. But they could simply be a version of the maturation chamber, since VOY implied that assimilated children were aged in them.

You're right. The writers intended those infants to be cloned or test tube Borg babies. And you're right there isn't anything to prevent someone from assuming they weren't just assimilated children and Riker just didn't realize that.

Really, the Borg have been an evolving race for the writers adding little things along the way as needed. BoBW adding assimilation of cultures/individuals. FC adding the Queen and insta-assimilation or Locutus having been assimilated not only to be a spokesperson but the Queen's counterpart. Scorpion the idea that the Borg can't analyze and adapt unless they've assimilated data on Species 8472. The idea that the Borg only assimilate to replenish their numbers. The idea that all it takes is for a drone to be separated from the Collective to regain their former selves. In The Gift, Seven rejecting her implants once severed from the Collective when Hugh or the rogue Descent Borg didn't have this problem.

startrekwatcher said:

Furthermore, the "Descent" Borg who became individuals had no memory of a former life. So either they were all natural Borg for the lack of a better term or they were assimilated victims whose memories and identities were purged during the assimilation process.

Well, that's one possibility. But we don't know whether any of them had recovered memories, because it was never mentioned. It wasn't relevant to the story. So we can't speculate very easily.

Well it seemed all the Borg they encountered in Descent were completely lost as to behave as individuals and they were given names by Lore. If they had remembered theirs they would have used them or tried to return home.

 

[Unicron]

That's because Hugh was not severed, and no attempt was made to remove his technology. The Borg in "Descent" may not have been tied into the main Collective, but it was clearly stated that they were still linked. So unlike Seven, whose life became threatened when her human systems started to fight back, Hugh and the "Descent" Borg never had the same issue. And as exodus said above, mere separation isn't enough for regaining individuality - it's only the first step.

Only one drone, Crosis, stated that his name came from Lore. Goval was the only other Borg referred to by name in the ep, so this could have either been his original name or another Lore invention.

 

[Timo]

...And of course, even if some of the Borg individuals did remember their pasts, Lore would be sure to assimilate them into his totalitarian army by renaming them.

That's pretty standard practice, really, this partial dehumanization by renaming. Every army does it to a degree, by replacing the civilian form of address with a rigid rank+surname type of designation, or indeed with just rank sans name.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

Unicron said:
That's because Hugh was not severed, and no attempt was made to remove his technology. The Borg in "Descent" may not have been tied into the main Collective, but it was clearly stated that they were still linked. So unlike Seven, whose life became threatened when her human systems started to fight back, Hugh and the "Descent" Borg never had the same issue. And as exodus said above, mere separation isn't enough for regaining individuality - it's only the first step.

I can swear I recall Geordie saying that a forcefield in the cell was stopping Hugh from talking to the other Drones in the Hive Mind.

 

[WalkinMan]

Maybe the link was like Seven's in Scorpion, pt. II. She said that her link to the collective was so weakened she could not call for help -- "we are alone" -- but yet the collective still had influence over her and she remained fully Borg.

 

[Unicron]

^ That's how I see it. Geordi does say that, but it's not the same as separating Hugh from the hive. It's simply blocked communication, the same way Seven's communication was blocked in "Scorpion" while Voyager was in fluidic space. The purpose of this block was to prevent Hugh from calling the Collective for help, not to sever him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

UM. There isn't a difference between being unable to talk to the collective and no longer being a part of the collective. the collective is just a bunch of people talking in a complete consensus.

Once severed, like Seven you could actually have liked being Borg, or been Borg since you were two years old and have no "life" to base an original personality on, but that still means that they've just got momentum keeping them Borg now and nothing pushing them to keep tot he party line.

 

[Unicron]

I think "Scorpion" demonstrated there is, as Seven didn't simply revert to being confused while her contact with the Collective was lost. She continued acting like a normal drone and speaking for the Borg. Same with Hugh - it's not clear whether he was actually assimilated or not, but still continued to act like a Borg. Even while he was developing limited individuality, he still had difficulty with the concept of not assimilating. And he initially saw Picard only as Locutus.

They did a similar thing with the Zerg in StarCraft. Sarah Kerrigan, one of the Terran heroes, was assimilated to serve as one of the Overmind's key weapons. When the Overmind was slain, she was no longer under its direct influence but she still remained Zerg, and now leads the Swarm in its place. Some of it's probably a result of her assimilation, but Kerrigan also seems to like what she is.

I can't recall, were they able to curtail Locutus' communications with the Collective while he was on the Enterprise? I'm tempted to say no since they used his link as a back door, but I don't remember.

 

[Timo]

The heroes desperately hoped that the link would NOT be severed, hypothesizing that cutting it would be analogous to self-amputation (or at least the pulling of a nose hair).

Probably there is a difference between a communications blackout and a deliberate uninstallation of communications software. The former might not endanger a Drone's existence in the Collective; some sort of a buffer might be in action, at least for a limited time (see "Survival Instinct"). The latter would result in the destruction of the buffer, too - and apparently in the death of the Drone if the Collective were allowed to have its way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seven talked about "turning off" some technobabble transponder in "One's" head so as to alert the Borg of his presence where after they would cancel his individuality.

But yes, Survival Instinct goes to show that there is no uniform method for coping with being severed from the hive.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

I liked how the Queen was handeled in First Contact, but I agree it turned bad on Voyager. Really took away alot of the intrigue about the borg.

Ironic given the Avatar I've had for nearly 4 years, I know.

 

[Kegek]

Unicron said:
In hindsight, why should we assume that Riker's description of the Borg "nurseries" was accurate? I mean, I don't doubt that's what the writers of QW intended them to be when the ep was made.

To clarify, the latter is all I'm talking about: Authorial intent. Most of the descrepancies can be explained away, but it's clear a lot of ideas about the Borg - quite prominent ones - were different to Hurley than they were to Piller, and from Piller on to Moore and Braga.

So it's obvious that Borg are 'born' in how Hurley sees it, but this has been revised to an emphasis on assimilation by later authors.