The Borg Queen

[archeryguy1701]

Wow, this has turned into quite the conversation!

Guy Gardener said:
It's not a fan myth.

Guinin said all they want is your technology in QWho, and then in the best of Both worlds they have an on screen conversation about the change in tactics of the Borg that they are now after people too. Though they should have figured that out from the neutral Zone colony excavations from the season finale of season one.

One could also look to one of the Queen's lines in FC... something along the lines of "I've heard that said from thousands of species across thousands of world. And now, they're all Borg." So, obviously they've always been assimilators unless they really got their acts together the previous six years.

Another argument for the multiple queens is that all her knowledge and personality traits are always being backed up in the hive mind, so when one gets destroyed, they aren't completely at a loss.

The reason all the drones on the Enterprise-E stopped functioning could be that since they went back in time,she was their only connection to that "order" they were used to. She was only connected to those drones and she was no longer connected to the full hive mind, so when she croaked, that redundancy wasn't available.

 

[Kegek]

archeryguy1701 said:
One could also look to one of the Queen's lines in FC... something along the lines of "I've heard that said from thousands of species across thousands of world. And now, they're all Borg."

That, my friend, is retconning. The Borg weren't established as assimilating people until First Contact, but it was there retroactively stated they'd been doing it since forever. Prior to that they'd been shown assimilating one guy - Picard - having a hard time at doing it, his assimilation had been alluded to as an exception, a Borg disconnected from the collective had no original name or species identity, and Q said they have no interest in people, just technology.

Continuity errors and all that. It's fun to explain 'em away, but let's not pretend they aren't there.

 

[Unicron]

Then why did the Borg in "Q Who?" look more or less exactly like the Borg we see today (barring minor cosmetics upgrades)? There is nothing to support the notion that the Collective is not thousands of centuries old (as Guinan said), or that they see organic lifeforms as sentient beings, and not simply biological machines to be consumed (as Q implied several times in QW).

For that matter, it looked like Picard's assimilation worked pretty well. What makes you think the Borg found it difficult?

 

[nx1701g]

Unicron said:
There is nothing to support the notion that the Collective is not thousands of centuries old

In Dragon's Teeth the leader of the Vaaudwaar said that the Borg weren't considered a threat 700 years ago and only had a handful of systems.

 

[Unicron]

Fair enough, but without watching the ep again to refresh my memory I'd say this comment might be open to interpretation. But I'd need to watch DT again.

 

[Kegek]

Unicron said:
For that matter, it looked like Picard's assimilation worked pretty well. What makes you think the Borg found it difficult?

It wasn't instantaneous. They had to capture him, and then operate on him. This was considerably more cumbersome than the FC version, with the injection tubules.

And the Borg had a huge visual overhaul in the aforesaid movie, basically as a result of a bigger budget. Perhaps most importantly the colour decor changed: Blue had been the dominant Borg colour in TNG. This was replaced in FC, and later VOY and ENT, by green.

Also, there's nothing to imply prior to FC that the Borg consist of more than one species. The absence of a non-Borg identity for Hugh of any kind sort of solidifies this. The implication is, that while they digest technological perfection, the Borg are essentially all of the same race.

 

[exodus]

archeryguy1701 said:
See, this is what I saw happening:
I didn't really think they changed. I figured in "Q who" they just assumed they were in it for the tech because the first thing they went after was the computer, and then didn't have the opportunity to take any people with them. The Borg used that information from the computer to decide Earth was a prime target for assimilation for one reason or another and went after it. They took Picard because they felt that having a human speak for and facilitate the assimilation process would make the humans more willing. Also First Contact established the Queen was around at BoBW. Your Slave mind concept makes sense, though. The need for a more powerful mind to hold it all together, make it run smoothly.

Personally, I think Voyager was the worst thing to happen to the Borg. While Voyager wasn't clobbering them left and right, they weren't the big scary bad guy they used to be. First Contact was, IMHO, their last good showing as a bad guy.

Depends on how you see the Borg.

The Borg could be no more bad than the Federation. The Federation "assimilates" cultures and beings into it's collective through the idea that many beings working together improves the whole. It's that the same ideas as the Borg? The only difference is the Borg don't ask, they just come for you.

As far as the Borg Queen, her & the Borg are one. Much like what Dr. Crusher said when she said the body operates as one and cutting one of them off is like cutting off an arm or leg. If the drones are the body, then the Queen is the brain. She works to "co-ordinate" the collective(body)but is also independant of is as much as our brains are independant of us. So the Borg work together as one big machine with the Queen sending out "impulses" to the rest of the collective to function in their task.

However, the collective doesn't shut down when a Queen is destroyed because her thoughts remain within the entire collective until a new body for her is created. She is always with them and they are always a part of her. One mind.

 

[Guy Gardener]

and still somehow meet the clumps won the oscar for sfx make up that year.

 

[Unicron]

Kegek said:

Also, there's nothing to imply prior to FC that the Borg consist of more than one species. The absence of a non-Borg identity for Hugh of any kind sort of solidifies this.

I have to disagree on the Borg only representing one race, because we rarely saw individual drones. The fact that all the ones we did see on TNG happened to strongly resemble humans doesn't prove there were no aliens in the Collective. I'd consider it purely a makeup/budget issue, as it was easier to have one consistent set of makeup for the occasional Borg appearance. Same with Picard's assimilation - it was indeed more cumbersome than we saw later, but there's no reason to assume the tubules are the only method of delivering nanoprobes.

As for Hugh, he was never disconnected from the hive - the Enterprise simply blocked his ability to communicate with the Borg and he developed some degree of individuality from his interactions. But it was less than what he would have experienced had he been truly separated. We've seen with others like Seven that being disconnected doesn't guarantee that all of their pre-assimilation memories and personality will resurface. She pretty much had to relearn everything about functioning as an individual.

 

[exodus]

Unicron said:

Kegek said:

Also, there's nothing to imply prior to FC that the Borg consist of more than one species. The absence of a non-Borg identity for Hugh of any kind sort of solidifies this.

I have to disagree on the Borg only representing one race, because we rarely saw individual drones. The fact that all the ones we did see on TNG happened to strongly resemble humans doesn't prove there were no aliens in the Collective. I'd consider it purely a makeup/budget issue, as it was easier to have one consistent set of makeup for the occasional Borg appearance.

Exactly.

Any being of non-Earth origin would still be considered "alien".

 

[Kegek]

Unicron said:
I have to disagree on the Borg only representing one race, because we rarely saw individual drones. The fact that all the ones we did see on TNG happened to strongly resemble humans doesn't prove there were no aliens in the Collective. I'd consider it purely a makeup/budget issue, as it was easier to have one consistent set of makeup for the occasional Borg appearance.

1. Yes, it was a makeup issue, but
2. It was also internally consistent with how the Borg were presented. "Q Who?" depicted them as a race that were born cybernetic and who worked with one conscious mind. There are no 'slave minds' that need to be liberated - the mind is liberally built upon all their minds.

It's a makeup issue insofar as they didn't try to make them look like a non-human race, beyond their pale, white skin (which Picard's assimilation made clear was a corrollary from their cybernetic nature).

We've seen with others like Seven that being disconnected doesn't guarantee that all of their pre-assimilation memories and personality will resurface.

The difference is she has an identity. It never occurs to anyone for a moment that Hugh did, it's even accepted that the Borg are 'his people', even if he doesn't want to return to them.

As early as "The Gift", Seven reveals: "Red. Her favourite colour was red." Hugh has no non-assimilation recall whatsoever - his identity hasn't been suppressed, it's been created.

 

[exodus]

^^Seven didn't have an identity until Janeway & Chakotay did some rescearch into who she was. Nobody "linked" minds with Hugh to find out who he was. That is the difference.

All Borg are "created" thru assimilation. Nobody is born Borg because Borg don't reproduce.

 

[Kegek]

exodus said:
All Borg are "created" thru assimilation. Nobody is born Borg because Borg don't reproduce.

My point exactly. When initially concieved in "Q Who?", the opposite was the case - Borg were born, not solely assimilated.

 

[Guy Gardener]

keeping babies in a draw?

Though later, we saw their maturation chambers, so that we can tell the Borg don't like kids on their ships. Alternatively Sevens parents wouldn't seem to be in their seventies. How long can a Borg live for baring accident?

Seven says that she remembers being afraid from having her optical implant installed.

 

[Peacemaker]

Kegek said:

Unicron said:
For that matter, it looked like Picard's assimilation worked pretty well. What makes you think the Borg found it difficult?

It wasn't instantaneous. They had to capture him, and then operate on him. This was considerably more cumbersome than the FC version, with the injection tubules.

And the Borg had a huge visual overhaul in the aforesaid movie, basically as a result of a bigger budget. Perhaps most importantly the colour decor changed: Blue had been the dominant Borg colour in TNG. This was replaced in FC, and later VOY and ENT, by green.

Also, there's nothing to imply prior to FC that the Borg consist of more than one species. The absence of a non-Borg identity for Hugh of any kind sort of solidifies this. The implication is, that while they digest technological perfection, the Borg are essentially all of the same race.

We only saw Picard captured in BOBW. The next time we saw him, he had been assimilated. Then they continued operating on him.

In FC and beyond, the injection tubules don't give you a full range of implants; they only begin the process. There is no reason to think this did not happen in BOBW as soon as they got him aboard the cube. In Dark Frontier the aliens assimilated in Part 2 were treated much the same way. Remember the ones that Seven set free?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Except that they asked Wesley how long it would take him to make nanites to fight the Borg Drones without mentioning that Wesley's nanites would be in a scaled conflict with the nano probes. He said two weeks( might have been the mommy?) and they scrubbed the idea.

 

[WalkinMan]

Just wanted to point out that...

1. Locutus/Picard was not assimilated in typical fashion, because he was to be a 'speaker' of sorts and 'not just another mindless drone' which is how direct assimilation may have worked. They wanted to keep his individuality more intact so they assimilated him slowly.

2. In BoBW and Q Who, the Borg 'don't do things piecemeal' -- so they don't just expend the resources to forcibly assimilate a starship and crew unless it's their priority. In Q Who they took a sample; in BoBW they were to focus all energies on A) assimilating Picard and then B) assimilating Earth.

3. Interesting comparison between I, Borg and Survival Instinct. The way Seven acted when collective contact was diminished, and how Hugh acted was somewhat similar. Perhaps Hugh was assimilated at as young an age as Seven was.

Yes, I acknowledge there was some ret-conning/evolution involved, but it's possible that later revelations did exist in earlier adaptations, but were not shown. It's sort of like the argument on how the Aliens reproduce in the movie Alien then sequel Aliens.

In some ways, I wish the Borg move forward combining the Best of Both Worlds -- the ruthless technology hunt of early on and the aggressive assimilating menace of later on -- ditch the Queen most of the time -- and be a multifaceted, still mysterious enemy.

 

[startrekwatcher]

TeutonicNights said:
It still doesn't make sense. If a Queen really was present in BoBW, wouldn't she have been easily able to shut down the sleep command?

Probably. I've never really been bothered by it. I just accepted it as part of what happens when writers need to change things to serve the story. And as far as the Queen being on the BoBW cube I was always under the impression that she wasn't on the cube but back in the Delta Quadrant at Unimatrix One.

The mental flashback Picard has of her whispering into Locutus' face coupled with the comment by the Queen of Picard thinking in such three-dimensional terms in response to Picard being surprised that she was still around seemed to imply that she was just there with Locutus through the mental link of the Hive Mind.

The Queen is just one of those confusing elements the writers don't really have a grasp on either. I remember Brannon, who had a significant role in developing the character, say that he didn't really know what she was beyond being an unusual type of Borg. He also went onto say that it was one of his regrets that that he never really figured it out and delved into it on Voyager.

That is odd given how often Voyager used the Borg. You would think there was plenty of time to do that. Also in the Borg issue of the now out-of-circulation Star Trek The Magazine Brannon basically said that she was created because Paramount felt the mainstream audience couldn't grasp the idea of a collective mind with no leader.

He and Moore felt the logical thing to do was to create a Queen given some of the parallels between insects and the Borg. Brannon went on about her being a sexy seductress. Moore commented about feeling guilty going in and messing up Hurley's original idea by having someone behind the curtain pulling the strings.

Berman and Moore butted his heads over whether she was "it"--"the big kahuna of Borgdom" as Moore put it. Moore wanted her to be the Borg leader and a unique being--not simply an avatar for the Collective Mind. Her death in FC would have been the end of her.

On the otherhand, Berman felt uncomfortable since he wanted to use her possibly on Voyager when that show started using the Borg. So they came to a compromise and decided to make who and what she was as vague as possible hence the pointless discourse between the Queen and Data when they first meet.

Guy Gardener said:
Twp actresses. One Queen. We have been lead to believe.

Actually Susanna Thompson asked Brannon when she came in to replace Krige in Dark Frontier if this was the same queen, cloned or otherwise, or a different one all together in order to know whether to emulate Krige's performance. They said it was a different one.

Furthermore In Unimatrix Zero Part I, Thompson wanted to know if it was the same Queen or a different one from DF because that one died presumably when B'elanna collapsed the transwarp conduit. Brannon said it was a different one.

 

[Peacemaker]

Guy Gardener said:
Except that they asked Wesley how long it would take him to make nanites to fight the Borg Drones without mentioning that Wesley's nanites would be in a scaled conflict with the nano probes. He said two weeks( might have been the mommy?) and they scrubbed the idea.

And BOBW was their second encounter with the Borg. There is no way they could have had enough info on assimilation to know any better.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Kegek said:

Unicron said:
For that matter, it looked like Picard's assimilation worked pretty well. What makes you think the Borg found it difficult?

It wasn't instantaneous. They had to capture him, and then operate on him. This was considerably more cumbersome than the FC version, with the injection tubules.

I personally preferred the slow methodical assimilation of Picard than the insta-assimilation in FC onwards. It was far more unsettling I thought.

Also, there's nothing to imply prior to FC that the Borg consist of more than one species. The absence of a non-Borg identity for Hugh of any kind sort of solidifies this. The implication is, that while they digest technological perfection, the Borg are essentially all of the same race.

Well "Q Who?" put forth the idea that the Borg had nurseries. Presumably they just cloned their offspring or had test tube babies as it were and then implanted technology to replenish their numbers.

When BoBW retconned the idea of assimilating cultures, I just assumed that we very well might have seen an assimilated non-Borg species like a Klingon etc but due to the assimilation process they are physically transformed into the generic looking drone we were used to seeing on TNG. Other episodes like TNG's "Identity Crisis" supports this notion that the DNA of a transformee is sufficiently altered to affect appearance. Then the Borg replenished their numbers through test-tube babies as well as assimilation of other species.

The obvious reason to not do that in FC was to let the audience enjoy seeing a Klingon or Bolian drone.

Then "I, Borg" came along and there isn't anything in there to say the Borg weren't comprised of both natural Borg and assimilated non-Borg. Afterall, Hugh could have been either a baby taken from an assimilated culture hence why he had no memory of a name/former life or he was one of the test-tube Borg children.

Furthermore, the "Descent" Borg who became individuals had no memory of a former life. So either they were all natural Borg for the lack of a better term or they were assimilated victims whose memories and identities were purged during the assimilation process.

You have to remember the impression from TNG with the Borg was that the assimilation eliminated the sense of self. The Borg assimilated all relevant data like tactical weanesses and the rest was erased. Picard was only salvaged due to the limited time he was a part of the Collective coupled with the Borg letting him retain a part of his individuality.

It was only VOY that put forth the idea, for storytelling purposes obviously, that if separated from the Hive Mind the technology suppressing the drone's memories would cease and they would be their old selves for the most part.

It was also VOY that stated that the Borg replenish their numbers exclusively through assimilation of other species.