the borg killed..millions

[RobertScorpio]

According to Picard, while trying to disuade Soran from doing what he was doing, the Borg killed 'millions', and that was just one world. Recently I have read in various threads that the Borg don't kill, they just assimilate. Well, I never believed that, and now Picard states it.

Ever since the events of BEST OF BOTH WORLD, and the events of FIRST CONTACT, and Voyagers dealings with the Borg, I have always considered the Federation in a state of war with the Borg and that any and all measures should have been taken to end the Borg threat...

Sisko took such measures against the Dominion in Pale Moonlight. Picard had his chance in I BORG and didn't. I believe Sisko was right, and Picard was a fool not to. Could Geordi/Data program have really destroyed the Borg? We will never know...

But Picard should have tried...and for that, IMO, he put his morals above the safety of the Federation.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[dave_R_treker]

Could Geordi/Data program have really destroyed the Borg? We will never know...

But Picard should have tried...and for that, IMO, he put his morals above the safety of the Federation.

Rob
Scorpio

I don’t think it would have eliminated the threat completely. Maybe a few cubes. Remember Hugh did have an effect on other Borg. The Borg from his ship all became individuals. The whole collective didn’t. So it’s a good possibility that the whole collective would not have been effected.

 

[foxmulder710]

According to Picard, while trying to disuade Soran from doing what he was doing, the Borg killed 'millions', and that was just one world. Recently I have read in various threads that the Borg don't kill, they just assimilate. Well, I never believed that, and now Picard states it.

Ever since the events of BEST OF BOTH WORLD, and the events of FIRST CONTACT, and Voyagers dealings with the Borg, I have always considered the Federation in a state of war with the Borg and that any and all measures should have been taken to end the Borg threat...

Sisko took such measures against the Dominion in Pale Moonlight. Picard had his change in I BORG and didn't. I believe Sisko was right, and Picard was a fool not too. Could Geordi/Data program have really destroyed the Borg? We will never know...

But Picard should have tried...and for that, IMO, he put his morals above the safety of the Federation.

Rob
Scorpio

The Borg have never actually "killed" millions, I don't think.

But I do agree, the Federation should be more proactive about fighting the Borg.

 

[Deks]

Maybe the Borg killed (literally) more than 'millions'.
After all, they assimilated about 10 026 species by the 5th season of Voyager (or at least we know the Borg were familiar with so many species up to that point) ... so who knows how many individuals were killed resisting before the Borg managed to assimilate the rest.

SF suffered casualties in what is speculated to be about 45 000 individuals from the 'Wolf 359 massacre'.
How many ships were in that battle exactly?
Around 40 (which is a very small number if they are supposed to/and they should/ have thousands of ships).

Now let's multiply the 45 000 casualties (rough number) with 10 026 species overall ...
Result is 451 170000 (at a bare minimum) ... that number alone is enough to man 4511.7 cubes (if we go with the supposition that each cube has about 100 000 drones).
That's such a small number that it's hardly far fetched the Borg had millions of ships (as Chakotay said) when Voyager first ventured into their territory.

When it comes to killings, I suppose the Borg would try to keep things to a minimum if possible because you never know who will posses better knowledge, cerebral abilities and whatnot, but ultimately sacrifices have to be made because of resistance to assimilation, plus the planets from which the people/tech came from are bound to house more of such individuals, not to mention computers and technology with all the info they need.

So yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the Borg killed more than millions.
They were around longer than most species which gave them plenty of time to go into the 'billions' if not 'trillions'

 

[Nardpuncher]

This has come up before (Picard's choice in I, Borg) and he should have hit the borg with that program. Even if you see it as morally wrong, then he should condemn himself to Hell for it.
Janeway would sometimes do the same thing...instead of doing the right thing for the ship or humanity, they ddefended their inaction by saying it would bring the Federation down morally to the enemy's level.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Could Geordi/Data program have really destroyed the Borg? We will never know...

But Picard should have tried...and for that, IMO, he put his morals above the safety of the Federation.

Rob
Scorpio

I don’t think it would have eliminated the threat completely. Maybe a few cubes. Remember Hugh did have an effect on other Borg. The Borg from his ship all became individuals. The whole collective didn’t. So it’s a good possibility that the whole collective would not have been effected.

Doesn't matter..Picard didn't know if it would or wouldn't. He should have taken the chance and not gambled. He did, and we will never know.

Rob

 

[Sector 7]

This has come up before (Picard's choice in I, Borg) and he should have hit the borg with that program. Even if you see it as morally wrong, then he should condemn himself to Hell for it.
Janeway would sometimes do the same thing...instead of doing the right thing for the ship or humanity, they ddefended their inaction by saying it would bring the Federation down morally to the enemy's level.

The problem with their reasoning is: by their inaction they could be destroying their precious Federation, making it a hollow moral victory.

 

[RobertScorpio]

According to Picard, while trying to disuade Soran from doing what he was doing, the Borg killed 'millions', and that was just one world. Recently I have read in various threads that the Borg don't kill, they just assimilate. Well, I never believed that, and now Picard states it.

Ever since the events of BEST OF BOTH WORLD, and the events of FIRST CONTACT, and Voyagers dealings with the Borg, I have always considered the Federation in a state of war with the Borg and that any and all measures should have been taken to end the Borg threat...

Sisko took such measures against the Dominion in Pale Moonlight. Picard had his change in I BORG and didn't. I believe Sisko was right, and Picard was a fool not too. Could Geordi/Data program have really destroyed the Borg? We will never know...

But Picard should have tried...and for that, IMO, he put his morals above the safety of the Federation.

Rob
Scorpio

The Borg have never actually "killed" millions, I don't think.

But I do agree, the Federation should be more proactive about fighting the Borg.

I just watched Generation three hours ago. He says it to Soran when he tries to talk him out of it..

"The Borg killed millions. Your wife. Your Children"..is his quote to Soran. If we take Picard at his word, and I do, and the fact Soran doesn't really debate the fact, he seems to believe it as well; the Borg kill.

But I am glad you agree though, in any event, as to how the Borg should have been delt with.

Rob

 

[RobertScorpio]

This has come up before (Picard's choice in I, Borg) and he should have hit the borg with that program. Even if you see it as morally wrong, then he should condemn himself to Hell for it.
Janeway would sometimes do the same thing...instead of doing the right thing for the ship or humanity, they ddefended their inaction by saying it would bring the Federation down morally to the enemy's level.

The problem with their reasoning is: by their inaction they could be destroying their precious Federation, making it a hollow moral victory.

Thats gibberish. So, if you're someone who is against guns, and a nut case breaks into your house and threatens to rape and kill your wife and kids,and kill you, you wouldn't kill him if a gun suddenly found its way into your hands?

Of course you would...its called survival. Sisko understood the difference between being 'moral' and 'living.' He chose, I believe, correctly."

Rob

 

[Sector 7]

^ Wanna try that again? What is "gibberish"? our point or the characters' point? The way you used the quotes it sounds like you think our points are gibberish, but your statement agrees with us.

 

[RobertScorpio]

^ Wanna try that again? What is "gibberish"? our point or the characters' point? The way you used the quotes it sounds like you think our points are gibberish, but your statement agrees with us.

Perhaps a differing opinion, I grant you that. But the meaning of the question is there. Most people, in the case of the example given above, even if they were against taking a life, would risk their lives to protect their children. I also maintain they would take a life if there was no other choice.

If they would let their children die and not stop them, then that is not the kind of person I want as a starship commander. Picard chose to take the high road. Some might argue it was the more 'mature thing to do'. I think it was unwise. We will never know. But the millions of lives that were lost after that point might join the long line of people waiting at the door that Q will open when Picard finally dies, and is walking eternity with Q.

Rob

 

[Timo]

Of course, this "potential saving of lives" thing is always a bit screwy. There's no point in cheating death: always, somebody - nay, everybody - dies. There's only the point of trying to affect who, how many, when, where.

Had Picard tried to kill the Borg in "I, Borg", and somehow succeeded (even though later events suggest success would have been impossible), he would have "potentially" saved millions. But he would have killed trillions. That's despicable. Killing two or ten enemy to prevent one of your own from dying, well, that happens. But killing a million enemy for every one of yours potentially saved - that's an atrocity worse than anything the Nazis ever managed to dream of. If that's self-defense, then self-defense should be a capital crime.

The admirals who suggested proceeding with this wholesale slaughter should have had their families tortured to death, to drive home what "sacrificing a few lives for victory" really means.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nardpuncher]

^ Wanna try that again? What is "gibberish"? our point or the characters' point? The way you used the quotes it sounds like you think our points are gibberish, but your statement agrees with us.

Perhaps a differing opinion, I grant you that. But the meaning of the question is there. Most people, in the case of the example given above, even if they were against taking a life, would risk their lives to protect their children. I also maintain they would take a life if there was no other choice.

If they would let their children die and not stop them, then that is not the kind of person I want as a starship commander. Picard chose to take the high road. Some might argue it was the more 'mature thing to do'. I think it was unwise. We will never know. But the millions of lives that were lost after that point might join the long line of people waiting at the door that Q will open when Picard finally dies, and is walking eternity with Q.

Rob

Mr. Spook 7 is right ....you agreed with us.

 

[Sector 7]

^ Wanna try that again? What is "gibberish"? our point or the characters' point? The way you used the quotes it sounds like you think our points are gibberish, but your statement agrees with us.

Perhaps a differing opinion, I grant you that. But the meaning of the question is there. Most people, in the case of the example given above, even if they were against taking a life, would risk their lives to protect their children. I also maintain they would take a life if there was no other choice.

If they would let their children die and not stop them, then that is not the kind of person I want as a starship commander. Picard chose to take the high road. Some might argue it was the more 'mature thing to do'. I think it was unwise. We will never know. But the millions of lives that were lost after that point might join the long line of people waiting at the door that Q will open when Picard finally dies, and is walking eternity with Q.

Rob

Mr. Spook 7 is right ....you agreed with us.

Yeah, Rob... I think we agree. Picard should have grown some nuggets and used the virus. It came down to an "us or them" situation.

 

[Jono]

Maybe the Borg killed (literally) more than 'millions'.
After all, they assimilated about 10 026 species by the 5th season of Voyager (or at least we know the Borg were familiar with so many species up to that point) ... so who knows how many individuals were killed resisting before the Borg managed to assimilate the rest.

SF suffered casualties in what is speculated to be about 45 000 individuals from the 'Wolf 359 massacre'.
How many ships were in that battle exactly?
Around 40 (which is a very small number if they are supposed to/and they should/ have thousands of ships).

Now let's multiply the 45 000 casualties (rough number) with 10 026 species overall ...
Result is 451 170000 (at a bare minimum) ... that number alone is enough to man 4511.7 cubes (if we go with the supposition that each cube has about 100 000 drones).
That's such a small number that it's hardly far fetched the Borg had millions of ships (as Chakotay said) when Voyager first ventured into their territory.

When it comes to killings, I suppose the Borg would try to keep things to a minimum if possible because you never know who will posses better knowledge, cerebral abilities and whatnot, but ultimately sacrifices have to be made because of resistance to assimilation, plus the planets from which the people/tech came from are bound to house more of such individuals, not to mention computers and technology with all the info they need.

So yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the Borg killed more than millions.
They were around longer than most species which gave them plenty of time to go into the 'billions' if not 'trillions'

Small nitpick, its was around 11,000 lives lost at Wolf 359, not 45,000.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

I also think Picard was very foolish in I, Borg.

I dont' think it's comparable to what S31 did to the founders, I don't think it really fits the definition of genocide in the same way if your wiping out a race of machines with no independent minds.

 

[cultcross]

Of course, being TNG, making the morally right choice always came out best for our heroes in the end, so it turned out Hugh was a walking 'virus' of individuality by himself in Descent. So they delivered the 'virus' they were hoping to, without the pesky moral ambiguities.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Of course, this "potential saving of lives" thing is always a bit screwy. There's no point in cheating death: always, somebody - nay, everybody - dies. There's only the point of trying to affect who, how many, when, where.

What about saving a way of life...or many ways...the Borg aren't land grabbers, they wipe out cultures under the premise of adding to their own perfection (or whatever you can call it). They are an anti-federation...to be sure. They encounter warp-capable cultures (I'm guessing that's their criteria) and assimilate them to the last.

The irony is that to fully defeat the Borg, you'd either have to fundementally change the Borg culture or eradicate them entirely.

Also, didn't Picard once say "All things are enslaved that serve things evil"?

The Federation may be a bit stuffy and PC when it comes to recognizing what amount to evil. But the drones are slaves in mind and body. And as Richie said in THE OMEGA MAN "Man, either kill 'em or cure 'em."

 

[Timo]

What about saving a way of life...or many ways...

That's a common excuse for bloodshed all right. I guess it goes on a case-by-case basis, and seldom with unambiguous agreement. Some may see it fit to save a way of life that hinges on slavery, others may wish to defend one based on racial hatred, yet others may value a society that culls the weak at birth.

I guess most of the humanoid folks in the galaxy could agree that their way of life is incompatible with that of the Borg, even when they would say the same about the lifestyles of each other, and perhaps with more force. Still, killing all the Borg shouldn't be the only solution. During the "hundreds of millennia" of their existence, how many civilizations have the Borg terminated? (Or preserved for eternity, depending on the viewpoint.) They only list about 10,000 species, and we know they haven't assimilated all the listed species, and aren't even planning to in the foreseeable future.

Resistance only appears to be futile for species in a very narrow "window", between the time a species becomes interesting enough for assimilation and the time it becomes too mighty to be assimilated. Enter alliances like the Federation, where species close to the "late end" of the slot, or past it, agree to help out the species at the "early end", and you get a Borg-proof galaxy where peaceful if grudging coexistence is a possibility.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FPAlpha]

But Picard should have tried...and for that, IMO, he put his morals above the safety of the Federation.

Rob
Scorpio

I think you missed the point.

First.. they weren't "his" morals.. they were the morals and ethics of the Federation as a whole (or at least what they strived to accomplish.. people are not perfect).

If he did that with the approval of his superiors they might have eliminated the threat but also eliminated the core of what the Federation was about.

It would have been genocide if they went ahead with the plan and Picard knew that. Can you really exterminate an entire species, as vile and dangerous as they may be, only to save yourself?

This is what Trek is about.. not big space battles, starships and the like but asking hard questions and answering them within the show but also asking the same question to their viewers so they might think about it.