The Borg, a defence

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by john titor, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    People seem to be killed by the Borg in defense against involuntary servitude. I don't think the comment that posters are forgiving towards civilian casualties in combat is on the mark. I imagine most, if not all, find it repulsive, as I do.

    I am curious about the way you differentiate between Borg civilians and Borg combatants--the series never dramatized them as having a society organized in such a way. There is certainly a moral problem in the killing of Borg drones, for the series dramatized repeatedly that drones could be removed from the Borg Collective and reintegrated into society, even those assimilated at a young age. This moral complexity was brushed upon in the series, but never adequately confronted in my opinion.

    On the other hand, the extermination of the Borg may be the only way to preserve one's way of life. As depicted on screen, the Borg are an unstoppable, voracious enemy (that they moved on the Federation rarely was a plot contrivance, and unrepresentative of their behavior towards other species). I highly doubt a peace of any kind could be forged between them and any other species. It's notable that even in the face of a practically invincible enemy in Species 8472, the Borg were never shown offering surrender.



    Robots may have been more sensible, but outside of the uniqueness of Data and a few other sentient robots in the Star Trek universe, robots just do not exist. The Borg incorporated organic components out of necessity, unable to transcend them by taking on a fully mechanical form, as dramatized in Descent and Descent II. Admittedly, it is absurd that the Federation has not developed such technology, let alone the Borg, considering what other things we have seen them routinely use on screen, but that's the narrative presented on screen.

    I must admit, it's been ages since I've seen any episodes of Star Trek: Voyager, particularly from the season that Child's Play was produced for. However, from my memory and a brief search of the internet provides no creative link between the Elian Gonzales affair and this particular episode. The timeline doesn't dismiss the possibility--Child's Play was broadcast on March 8, 2000 and likely written and filmed in January and February of that year; the Gonzales affair had certainly gained press attention beginning in November of 1999, although it did not come to a head until after the episode was produced and broadcast. I suppose I'm just curious where you're drawing your information from here.

    Not the same overtones if the same comment had been made about the Klingons, which often take on stereotypical African-American characteristics (though, curiously, have also served as stand-ins for Communism as well). That would have been distasteful. In universe, that the Borg have no interest in the Kazon, a species that was consistently depicted as entirely dependent on the theft of technology from others, is no surprise. Outside of the fictional world, the Kazon were never representative of most blacks like the Klingons were, and I think you're stretching to take so much offense in this case.
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Don't mind stj. Everything's right-wing propaganda to him.
     
  3. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can't recall Klingons being said to represent Black Americans before, later editions of Trek just used Black actors to portray them. I thought they went from Soviets to a quasi Samurai and Viking mixed culture. But if memory serves the gang, not African American, allusions to the Kazon were made
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    Moore wasn't under the contract Berman and Braga were under, and Michael Piller was asked to leave (he was fired), their situations were different.

    Frankly, Behr comes off as a whiner to me these days. And Wang has little room to complain as he was hardly a Master Thespian to begin with. Moore, well I've made my feelings about him and Trek clear before (disgruntled ex-employee). B&B were burnt out from years of being under UPN's thumb, but they're hardly the spawns of Satan the (Hate)dom made them out to be.
     
  5. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Other than the cloak and the weapons of the ENT, what else was "explicitly stated to be new"?

    Technological limits should have, in theory, made for better drama.

    Ths is exactly how I feel about it. :techman:
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    In theory, maybe. In reality, no. It would've just made it boring. I was against the idea of a prequel to begin with and that opinion hasn't changed much (even though I don't hate ENT, I just don't like ANY prequels out there).
     
  7. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't want a prequel either. But I still think there were opportunities there, once that decision was made. Achieve a balance between tech limits and tech advancements and I think you'd have had a very powerful format.
     
  8. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    But if they stuck to the "atomic" limitations, that would mean they couldn't even use tech we have today (since "atomic" is different from "nuclear"). And the effects would have to be lousy looking too otherwise it would be "too advanced for it's time", with the atomic torpedoes moving really slowly (has to be slower than a photon torpedo) and the ships moving even slower (see how un-maneuverable the TOS Enterprise was, then make something even more "primitive" and it's a brick in space).
     
  9. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, first, I wouldn't adhere strictly to "atomic." I'd just make what they used more like an outgrowth of what we have in the 21st century than what TOS had in the 23rd. Just don't mention the word "atomic" and we can leave it to the viewers' imaginations what Spock was talking about.

    Still, there are other good things in what he said - less maneuverable ships, no room for quarter. That means the ships were probably capable of a lot less, and a lot more fragile.

    The effects would not have to be lousy-looking either; if anything, the production design should be more "rough around the edges" to indicate that the tech hadn't been perfected yet. We know the real reason the Enterprise on TOS didn't bank and maneuver hard on screen was because it was a single-mount pre-motion control.

    I think ENT could have gotten away with a good compromise. New effects, retro design.
     
  10. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    Nah, as soon as the viewers saw the major damage and explosions done by whatever it was the NX-01 would be using they'd claim it was too impressive and destructive to be an atomic weapon. They'd demand it be a small, unimpressive explosion and effect used.

    Capable of a lot less, more fragile, less writing opportunity.

    And viewers wouldn't care why the TOS Ent wasn't maneuverable, they'd just care that the NX-01 be a brick in space that barely nudged an inch from scene to scene.

    Only way for ENT to please the unpleasable fanbase would be to make it all so shoestring-budget that it would turn off everyone else. Trek prequel just doesn't work.

    And don't get me started on the PLOT, if anything spells bad for ENT it would've been the PLOT (if they had been true to what TOS said).
     
  11. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, we do seem to agree that a prequel was the wrong way to go, at least.

    And then it had Borg on it. :rommie:
     
  12. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You're assuming that a "less advanced" prequel would be made to look and feel more like TOS. On the contrary, any good prequel should have an entirely different tone from what came before (while feeling like part of the same spectrum of sounds, however).

    Oh come now, a ship can look exciting in a battle without doing flips and shit. And without shiny space rays shooting out of its ass.

    Just look at BSG. Particularly Galactica and Pegasus beating down the Resurrection Ship.

    I as well, don't think a prequel was necessary or warranted. But its too late - now Star Trek's universe - like Star Wars - has become technologically and socially stagnant for incredible stretches of time - an unchanging mess, littered with anachronisms galore.
     
  13. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well said as always, Jitty.

    I agree that a prequel should have had a different feel - but should have felt like it could "grow up" into TOS. (I'd have loved some "broadsides" type ship battles.) ENT as it was felt like it would grow up into TNG. Therefore, ENT is a TNG-era fictionalized holonovel.

    :hugegrin:
     
  14. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    That's the thing though, TOS is so much the infancy I can't seen anything being the predecessor to that. And if they HAD made it that different the complaints would be "There's no way this developed into how they fight in TOS+" with how maneuverable the ships were in DS9.

    I've made my complaints about the BSG style of fighting before, and I still stand by them. Plus BSG isn't in the Trekverse so it gets an out in how it portrayed Space combat compared to how a prequel would be while still in keeping with past canon.

    Although, I do think it is a little offensive to disregard ENT as a TNG Holonovel. It happened, we just have to deal with it.
     
  15. Mr.Borg

    Mr.Borg Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I think..you know how the Borg are sooo advanced and stuff...well..why don't they send a dozen Cubes at earth..not just one little cube at a time.
     
  16. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I personally think that they're just probing and testing the Federation (and probably Romulan, Klingon, etc) defensive capabilities, tactics, size, etc. every once in a while to prevent the Borg from being taken by surprise.

    They'll eventually come to Federation in force, though. Either when they've come up with a clever plan, percieve a major weakness, or have assimilated the rest of space between the Delta quad and the Federation (the latter being the most likely, IMO).
     
  17. Welshie

    Welshie Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Well...
    According to the Star Trek books that have been written in the last year or so, the Borg finally decided that the Federation was enough of a threat to actually bother with, sent a few hundred cubes over to the Alpha Quadrant, and killed some 60 billion people before getting removed by some deus ex machina aliens. It's a pity this sort of thing was never shown on film, though.
     
  18. RobertScorpio

    RobertScorpio Pariah

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    never gonna happen..we will make peace with them long before that..thats the STAR TREK way; or hadn't you noticed. They will be part of the Federation eventually...

    Rob
     
  19. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, I agree it happened. It was just "really" better acted and better written. And there was no Temporal Cold War and no cloaks. ;)

    No, Jitty is right, and I agree with his assessment of probing and prodding the Federation. The Borg are a force of nature. You don't negotiate with hurricanes, you prepare for them.

    Of course, the Federation has weather control tech, so that shoots my analogy to hell... or does it? :rommie:

    If any Borg ever joined the Federation, they would be like the drones from "Unity." I mean, the Bynars are basically a limited Borg anyway, so for all we know there are cybernetic Borg-like hive-mind type civilizations in the UFP already that don't go throwing their cubes around.
     
  20. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    In the ENT team's defense regarding cloaks, that wasn't their intention: Originally the ENT "Cloak" was just supposed to be stealth (the ship is visually there, but no sensor readings) in both the Suliban and Romulan cases. But the FX teams didn't know this and assumed that "cloak" still meant the same thing and by the time they let them know it was too late. So they kept the cloaking effect as is to save money.