The Borg, a defence

[Harvey]

Also, given the confusion between assmilation and death, it is by no means clear that anyone is killed by the Borg other than in combat. There is no reason to think that combat deaths of civilians are a problem for any other posters here. Certainly, the vehement desire of the majority to exterminate all the Commies, er, Borg, shows no distinction between combatants and civilians in the Collective.

People seem to be killed by the Borg in defense against involuntary servitude. I don't think the comment that posters are forgiving towards civilian casualties in combat is on the mark. I imagine most, if not all, find it repulsive, as I do.

I am curious about the way you differentiate between Borg civilians and Borg combatants--the series never dramatized them as having a society organized in such a way. There is certainly a moral problem in the killing of Borg drones, for the series dramatized repeatedly that drones could be removed from the Borg Collective and reintegrated into society, even those assimilated at a young age. This moral complexity was brushed upon in the series, but never adequately confronted in my opinion.

On the other hand, the extermination of the Borg may be the only way to preserve one's way of life. As depicted on screen, the Borg are an unstoppable, voracious enemy (that they moved on the Federation rarely was a plot contrivance, and unrepresentative of their behavior towards other species). I highly doubt a peace of any kind could be forged between them and any other species. It's notable that even in the face of a practically invincible enemy in Species 8472, the Borg were never shown offering surrender.

The Picard version may be all horror show but it makes no sense for a computer program to go to the trouble of suppressing organic minds to use the bodies. Robots would be much more sensible. The sentimental attachment to such nonsense is puzzling.

Robots may have been more sensible, but outside of the uniqueness of Data and a few other sentient robots in the Star Trek universe, robots just do not exist. The Borg incorporated organic components out of necessity, unable to transcend them by taking on a fully mechanical form, as dramatized in Descent and Descent II. Admittedly, it is absurd that the Federation has not developed such technology, let alone the Borg, considering what other things we have seen them routinely use on screen, but that's the narrative presented on screen.

The Voyager episode Child's Play was directly inspired by the Elian Gonzalez case, with the Borg playing the role of Cuba. The episode cleverly condemned the mother for risking the boy's life yet still saving him from the evil Fidelistas, and fictionally kicking their asses for good measure. Oh, yes, the Collective was indeed usually a symbol of Communism. Beating the Cold War drums was one of the ways Berman Trek really was stick in the mud trash. But no one here complains about that.

I must admit, it's been ages since I've seen any episodes of Star Trek: Voyager, particularly from the season that Child's Play was produced for. However, from my memory and a brief search of the internet provides no creative link between the Elian Gonzales affair and this particular episode. The timeline doesn't dismiss the possibility--Child's Play was broadcast on March 8, 2000 and likely written and filmed in January and February of that year; the Gonzales affair had certainly gained press attention beginning in November of 1999, although it did not come to a head until after the episode was produced and broadcast. I suppose I'm just curious where you're drawing your information from here.

Given the known intention for the Kazon to represent Bloods and Crips, i.e., Blacks, the wisecrack about not assimilating the Kazon had distinctly unpleasant overtones.

Not the same overtones if the same comment had been made about the Klingons, which often take on stereotypical African-American characteristics (though, curiously, have also served as stand-ins for Communism as well). That would have been distasteful. In universe, that the Borg have no interest in the Kazon, a species that was consistently depicted as entirely dependent on the theft of technology from others, is no surprise. Outside of the fictional world, the Kazon were never representative of most blacks like the Klingons were, and I think you're stretching to take so much offense in this case.

 

[Sci]

Outside of the fictional world, the Kazon were never representative of most blacks like the Klingons were, and I think you're stretching to take so much offense in this case.

Don't mind stj. Everything's right-wing propaganda to him.

 

[Star Wolf]

Outside of the fictional world, the Kazon were never representative of most blacks like the Klingons were, and I think you're stretching to take so much offense in this case.

Don't mind stj. Everything's right-wing propaganda to him.

I can't recall Klingons being said to represent Black Americans before, later editions of Trek just used Black actors to portray them. I thought they went from Soviets to a quasi Samurai and Viking mixed culture. But if memory serves the gang, not African American, allusions to the Kazon were made

 

[Anwar]

They were contracted beforehand. Quitting would have been a violation of said contract and led to lawsuits/blacklisted from the industry.

Tell that to Ronald D. Moore, who did quit when he realized he wasn't going to be able to turn out good work under those conditions.

And I'm skeptical of the idea that it's all UPN's fault, frankly. Numerous statements from Moore, Ira Steven Behr, Garret Wang, and others, have strongly implied over the years that Trek was being run according to the arbitrary, risk-adverse whims of Rick Berman. (In particular, Wang's claim that actors playing Humans were instructed by Berman to tone down their performances to create emotionally flat Humans because Berman felt that was the only way to make alien characters believable sticks with me.)

I'm not saying Berman and Braga are bad guys. And both of them did turn out good scripts at times, too. But it's my strong opinion that by the time of mid-VOY, both were suffering from creative burnout and weren't producing good stories anymore -- and that their aversion to creative risk stifled other writers.

Moore wasn't under the contract Berman and Braga were under, and Michael Piller was asked to leave (he was fired), their situations were different.

Frankly, Behr comes off as a whiner to me these days. And Wang has little room to complain as he was hardly a Master Thespian to begin with. Moore, well I've made my feelings about him and Trek clear before (disgruntled ex-employee). B&B were burnt out from years of being under UPN's thumb, but they're hardly the spawns of Satan the (Hate)dom made them out to be.

 

[Praetor]

The cloaking devices didn't help the Suliban much, either.

Adhering to established canon puts hard limits on storytelling, but that isn't always a bad thing. Working within those limits can sometimes produce much more interesting and compelling narratives than would be possible with total creative freedom.

Not with how utterly constrained ENT would've been if they slavishly obeyed every last thing TOS said about the pre-TOS era.

The main problem is that TOS wasn't made with a prequel in mind, too much stuff was explicitly stated to be brand new in TOS for there to be anything leftover for a prequel. And plus, if anyone heroic had been around pre-TOS they'd have been mentioned but no one ever was. Wars worked (to an extent) in that it was still the same guy in charge, featured a lot of the same characters from the other movies, and they never told us anything about the past aside from one mention of the "Clone Wars" leaving them free to do whatever they wanted.

Other than the cloak and the weapons of the ENT, what else was "explicitly stated to be new"?

Technological limits should have, in theory, made for better drama.

Personally, I don't despise VOY or ENT; I'm just terribly disappointed in them. In my view, neither one lived up to their true dramatic potential (though ENT began to in its final year). VOY started off promisingly, but the first major dramatic flaw hits at the end of "Caretaker" -- even though the Maquis make up a third of Voyager's crew, and even though the Starfleet crew needs the Maquis, and even though the Maquis had demonstrated bravery and selflessness by sacrificing their ship to save Voyager, Janeway still forces the Maquis to join Starfleet and demands that Voyager be run as a Starfleet ship, instead of creating a more democratic command structure that acknowledges the reality of Voyager's situation (cut off from Command) and treats the Maquis as equal partners instead of subordinates.

The basic problem with both VOY and ENT, so aptly demonstrated with the finale of "Caretaker," is that each one set itself up to be very different from TNG... and then fell into the pattern of trying to be TNG again. Neither one lived up to their differences, to the things that made them unique; both spent most of their lifespans trying to be TNG again, and both failed dramatically. TNG succeeded by not trying to be TOS. DS9 succeeded by not trying to be TNG. VOY and ENT failed by trying to be TNG -- and ENT only began to succeed when it stopped trying to be any series but itself.

Ths is exactly how I feel about it.

 

[Anwar]

Technological limits should have, in theory, made for better drama.

In theory, maybe. In reality, no. It would've just made it boring. I was against the idea of a prequel to begin with and that opinion hasn't changed much (even though I don't hate ENT, I just don't like ANY prequels out there).

 

[Praetor]

I didn't want a prequel either. But I still think there were opportunities there, once that decision was made. Achieve a balance between tech limits and tech advancements and I think you'd have had a very powerful format.

 

[Anwar]

But if they stuck to the "atomic" limitations, that would mean they couldn't even use tech we have today (since "atomic" is different from "nuclear"). And the effects would have to be lousy looking too otherwise it would be "too advanced for it's time", with the atomic torpedoes moving really slowly (has to be slower than a photon torpedo) and the ships moving even slower (see how un-maneuverable the TOS Enterprise was, then make something even more "primitive" and it's a brick in space).

 

[Praetor]

Well, first, I wouldn't adhere strictly to "atomic." I'd just make what they used more like an outgrowth of what we have in the 21st century than what TOS had in the 23rd. Just don't mention the word "atomic" and we can leave it to the viewers' imaginations what Spock was talking about.

Still, there are other good things in what he said - less maneuverable ships, no room for quarter. That means the ships were probably capable of a lot less, and a lot more fragile.

The effects would not have to be lousy-looking either; if anything, the production design should be more "rough around the edges" to indicate that the tech hadn't been perfected yet. We know the real reason the Enterprise on TOS didn't bank and maneuver hard on screen was because it was a single-mount pre-motion control.

I think ENT could have gotten away with a good compromise. New effects, retro design.

 

[Anwar]

Nah, as soon as the viewers saw the major damage and explosions done by whatever it was the NX-01 would be using they'd claim it was too impressive and destructive to be an atomic weapon. They'd demand it be a small, unimpressive explosion and effect used.

Capable of a lot less, more fragile, less writing opportunity.

And viewers wouldn't care why the TOS Ent wasn't maneuverable, they'd just care that the NX-01 be a brick in space that barely nudged an inch from scene to scene.

Only way for ENT to please the unpleasable fanbase would be to make it all so shoestring-budget that it would turn off everyone else. Trek prequel just doesn't work.

And don't get me started on the PLOT, if anything spells bad for ENT it would've been the PLOT (if they had been true to what TOS said).

 

[Praetor]

Well, we do seem to agree that a prequel was the wrong way to go, at least.

And then it had Borg on it.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

You're assuming that a "less advanced" prequel would be made to look and feel more like TOS. On the contrary, any good prequel should have an entirely different tone from what came before (while feeling like part of the same spectrum of sounds, however).

Oh come now, a ship can look exciting in a battle without doing flips and shit. And without shiny space rays shooting out of its ass.

Just look at BSG. Particularly Galactica and Pegasus beating down the Resurrection Ship.

I as well, don't think a prequel was necessary or warranted. But its too late - now Star Trek's universe - like Star Wars - has become technologically and socially stagnant for incredible stretches of time - an unchanging mess, littered with anachronisms galore.

 

[Praetor]

Well said as always, Jitty.

I agree that a prequel should have had a different feel - but should have felt like it could "grow up" into TOS. (I'd have loved some "broadsides" type ship battles.) ENT as it was felt like it would grow up into TNG. Therefore, ENT is a TNG-era fictionalized holonovel.

 

[Anwar]

That's the thing though, TOS is so much the infancy I can't seen anything being the predecessor to that. And if they HAD made it that different the complaints would be "There's no way this developed into how they fight in TOS+" with how maneuverable the ships were in DS9.

I've made my complaints about the BSG style of fighting before, and I still stand by them. Plus BSG isn't in the Trekverse so it gets an out in how it portrayed Space combat compared to how a prequel would be while still in keeping with past canon.

Although, I do think it is a little offensive to disregard ENT as a TNG Holonovel. It happened, we just have to deal with it.

 

[Mr.Borg]

I think..you know how the Borg are sooo advanced and stuff...well..why don't they send a dozen Cubes at earth..not just one little cube at a time.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I personally think that they're just probing and testing the Federation (and probably Romulan, Klingon, etc) defensive capabilities, tactics, size, etc. every once in a while to prevent the Borg from being taken by surprise.

They'll eventually come to Federation in force, though. Either when they've come up with a clever plan, percieve a major weakness, or have assimilated the rest of space between the Delta quad and the Federation (the latter being the most likely, IMO).

 

[Welshie]

I think..you know how the Borg are sooo advanced and stuff...well..why don't they send a dozen Cubes at earth..not just one little cube at a time.

Well...

Spoiler

According to the Star Trek books that have been written in the last year or so, the Borg finally decided that the Federation was enough of a threat to actually bother with, sent a few hundred cubes over to the Alpha Quadrant, and killed some 60 billion people before getting removed by some deus ex machina aliens. It's a pity this sort of thing was never shown on film, though.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I personally think that they're just probing and testing the Federation (and probably Romulan, Klingon, etc) defensive capabilities, tactics, size, etc. every once in a while to prevent the Borg from being taken by surprise.

They'll eventually come to Federation in force, though. Either when they've come up with a clever plan, percieve a major weakness, or have assimilated the rest of space between the Delta quad and the Federation (the latter being the most likely, IMO).

never gonna happen..we will make peace with them long before that..thats the STAR TREK way; or hadn't you noticed. They will be part of the Federation eventually...

Rob

 

[Praetor]

Although, I do think it is a little offensive to disregard ENT as a TNG Holonovel. It happened, we just have to deal with it.

Oh, I agree it happened. It was just "really" better acted and better written. And there was no Temporal Cold War and no cloaks.

I personally think that they're just probing and testing the Federation (and probably Romulan, Klingon, etc) defensive capabilities, tactics, size, etc. every once in a while to prevent the Borg from being taken by surprise.

They'll eventually come to Federation in force, though. Either when they've come up with a clever plan, percieve a major weakness, or have assimilated the rest of space between the Delta quad and the Federation (the latter being the most likely, IMO).

never gonna happen..we will make peace with them long before that..thats the STAR TREK way; or hadn't you noticed. They will be part of the Federation eventually...

Rob

No, Jitty is right, and I agree with his assessment of probing and prodding the Federation. The Borg are a force of nature. You don't negotiate with hurricanes, you prepare for them.

Of course, the Federation has weather control tech, so that shoots my analogy to hell... or does it?

If any Borg ever joined the Federation, they would be like the drones from "Unity." I mean, the Bynars are basically a limited Borg anyway, so for all we know there are cybernetic Borg-like hive-mind type civilizations in the UFP already that don't go throwing their cubes around.

 

[Anwar]

In the ENT team's defense regarding cloaks, that wasn't their intention: Originally the ENT "Cloak" was just supposed to be stealth (the ship is visually there, but no sensor readings) in both the Suliban and Romulan cases. But the FX teams didn't know this and assumed that "cloak" still meant the same thing and by the time they let them know it was too late. So they kept the cloaking effect as is to save money.