The appeal of Sisko

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's rare that we agree on anything, but I think you're completely right about Bakula. He's a good actor but that was not the right role for him. He does much better in feelgood, more sentimental roles. There IS a place for actors like that, to be sure. Unfortunately starship command wasn't one of those places.

 

[StarryEyed]

^ It amazes me that the professional people working in the industry did not see that! I've always felt that DS9 was a perfect storm of nearly everything gone right but that the acumen of the people responsible for casting was the single biggest factor in DS9s success. Brooks was perfect for the role of Sisko.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah...even though Brooks wasn't perfect, he was almost ALWAYS believable as Sisko.

With Bakula...I actually think some of his best work may have been Cats Don't Dance. A kids' movie, but it got me hooked and had me "believing" him as the character. That's about as far from a military officer as you can get. Now, there are some actors I think ARE a bit more versatile and able to play both good guys and bad guys (for some reason I think Marc Alaimo could do it and do it well, if someone decided to break from the usual typecasting he gets), but Bakula...I just don't think he has a true mean bone in his body.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Yeah, I'll never understand the heavy handed swipes people take at Brooks for his portrayal of Sisko. I'm not going to deny that he had some cringe worthy moments. Hell, his portrayal of Sisko in By Inferno's Light to In Purgatory's Shadow bordered on skitzophrenic. But the same type of ham acting that Shatner displayed is accepted with a nod and a wink. Meanwhile accepting Brooks bad moments gets chalked up to some bullshit affirmative action argument.

 

[StarryEyed]

I've always admired actors who could do very different roles believably. Some of the ones that really got my attention may not be highly regarded as actors. Richard Pryor comes immediately to mind. This comedic actor managed to do some dramatic roles towards the end of his career that floored me because I never would have imagined that he could have done it. Kate Capshaw is another. The first two movies I saw her in were Dreamscape and Space Camp. In both movies, she played very cerebral, head-strong, no-nonsense characters. I was amazed to see her believably play a blond dipshit in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. And who can forget that Majel Barret played Number 1, Christine Chapel and Lwuxanna Troi? I guess some people assume that all good actors can do that. I'm surprised that Scott Bakula's auditions didn't reveal the fact that he was not going to be effective in the role a command figure who would often have to be a heavy-handed character.

 

[G2309]

^ the acumen of the people responsible for casting was the single biggest factor in DS9s success. Brooks was perfect for the role of Sisko.

I agree ds9 was the best cast of all the series. The only weak actors were the woman playing Neela and Michael Dorn. Even the secondary characters were well done like Andrew Roninson.
I dread to think what would have happened if Johnathon Frakes,Robert Beltran or Jolene Blalok had to shoulder a story like duet.

 

[Kelso]

^ Michael Dorn? WTF? Michael Dorn fucking rocks.

So does Brooks/Sisko. Great character, great captain.

 

[DevilEyes]

Yeah...even though Brooks wasn't perfect, he was almost ALWAYS believable as Sisko.

With Bakula...I actually think some of his best work may have been Cats Don't Dance. A kids' movie, but it got me hooked and had me "believing" him as the character. That's about as far from a military officer as you can get. Now, there are some actors I think ARE a bit more versatile and able to play both good guys and bad guys (for some reason I think Marc Alaimo could do it and do it well, if someone decided to break from the usual typecasting he gets), but Bakula...I just don't think he has a true mean bone in his body.

Bakula really can't play a bad guy to save his life, his performance was the only flaw I saw in In A Mirror, Darkly. By that time - actually, for most of the last couple of seasons - I was pretty satisfied with him as Archer, but he really didn't work as Mirror Archer... he just seemed to be trying to hard, and it wasn't working.

for some reason I think Marc Alaimo could do it and do it well, if someone decided to break from the usual typecasting he gets)

It shouldn't be hard - people usually say that he's really sweet IRL...

Isn't it tiresome how some actors get typecast as bad guys? I never can understand why. Hollywood casting directors are so unimaginative.

^ the acumen of the people responsible for casting was the single biggest factor in DS9s success. Brooks was perfect for the role of Sisko.

I agree ds9 was the best cast of all the series. The only weak actors were the woman playing Neela and Michael Dorn. Even the secondary characters were well done like Andrew Roninson.
I dread to think what would have happened if Johnathon Frakes,Robert Beltran or Jolene Blalok had to shoulder a story like duet.

Neela?? She was a one-episode guest star. Do you mean Leeta?

I didn't see anything wrong with Dorn. If you find Worf dull, that's another matter.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

for some reason I think Marc Alaimo could do it and do it well, if someone decided to break from the usual typecasting he gets)

It shouldn't be hard - people usually say that he's really sweet IRL...

Isn't it tiresome how some actors get typecast as bad guys? I never can understand why. Hollywood casting directors are so unimaginative.

Indeed...sadly I admit it stunned me at first when I started to hear the anecdotes about how nice he was to people at cons and so forth. And I KNOW you can't always tell this from photos, but when I've found photos of him where he's not trying to be Dukat-like for a publicity shoot, he just...reads to me like an entirely different kind of person.

I think it's pretty unfortunate that actors get "stuck" in a certain kind of role when they're likely to be capable of so much more. But to come back onto the current topic, of course, I also think casting directors need to be smart enough to recognize when someone is NOT convincing in a certain kind of role and go with someone else. (Which is, ironically, how Marc Alaimo got his role as Dukat--a last-minute casting change.)

 

[indolover]

^ the acumen of the people responsible for casting was the single biggest factor in DS9s success. Brooks was perfect for the role of Sisko.

I agree ds9 was the best cast of all the series. The only weak actors were the woman playing Neela and Michael Dorn. Even the secondary characters were well done like Andrew Roninson.
I dread to think what would have happened if Johnathon Frakes,Robert Beltran or Jolene Blalok had to shoulder a story like duet.

Beltran was the best actor IMO on Voyager. Frakes was so-so (Sir Patrick hands down was the best actor, with Spiner and Dorn as other good ones) and Blalock so-so also.

 

[G2309]

I always thought Robert Picardo was the best actor on Voyager, but i can't remember an episode when Beltran had much to work with. I heard Dorn got arogant and there was far too much of his charachter in ds9. In my opinion the other actors outshone him.

 

[flemm]

I always thought Robert Picardo was the best actor on Voyager, but i can't remember an episode when Beltran had much to work with. I heard Dorn got arogant and there was far too much of his charachter in ds9. In my opinion the other actors outshone him.

It's hard to evaluate Voyager's cast because many of the actors were given so little to work with. Beltran as Chakotay is one of the most glaring examples of this.

As for Worf, Dorn is on autopilot a lot of the time. Not that he's horrible or anything, I've been a fan of Worf since TNG was on the air, but I agree that Brooks, Visitor, Shimmerman, Auberjonois, Alaimo, Robinson and others have an extra gear that Dorn either doesn't have or rarely shows.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ the acumen of the people responsible for casting was the single biggest factor in DS9s success. Brooks was perfect for the role of Sisko.

I agree ds9 was the best cast of all the series. The only weak actors were the woman playing Neela and Michael Dorn. Even the secondary characters were well done like Andrew Roninson.
I dread to think what would have happened if Johnathon Frakes,Robert Beltran or Jolene Blalok had to shoulder a story like duet.

Beltran was the best actor IMO on Voyager. Frakes was so-so (Sir Patrick hands down was the best actor, with Spiner and Dorn as other good ones) and Blalock so-so also.

I don't know what Beltran's other work is like, but in VOY he was totally wooden, even on rare occasions when he got something to do (I remember a scene in Equinox when he seemed indifferent during a charged confrontation with Janeway). Maybe he wasn't trying anymore after a while, but I really cannot understand why people praise him, at least based on his work on VOY.

On the other hand, Blalock might be a really weak actress on the whole (I have barely seen her in anything else so I don't know), but she was perfect as T'Pol IMO. Frakes was weak in the beginning, like most of TNG's cast with the exception of Stewart, but he got much better throughout the seasons and eventually became one of the better actors on TNG.

 

[indolover]

I always thought Robert Picardo was the best actor on Voyager, but i can't remember an episode when Beltran had much to work with. I heard Dorn got arogant and there was far too much of his charachter in ds9. In my opinion the other actors outshone him.

I think as Worf is a very stoical and reserved character, it doesn't show much range for Dorn. but I think in TNG, Worf was written in more comic situations, whilst in DS9 the character wasn't as such. TNG Worf was better written than DS9 Worf, IMO. I guess they had Quark as comic relief, when in TNG Worf was the comic relief character (and Data to some degree).

 

[Mareika]

I agree ds9 was the best cast of all the series. The only weak actors were the woman playing Neela and Michael Dorn. Even the secondary characters were well done like Andrew Roninson.
I dread to think what would have happened if Johnathon Frakes,Robert Beltran or Jolene Blalok had to shoulder a story like duet.

Beltran was the best actor IMO on Voyager. Frakes was so-so (Sir Patrick hands down was the best actor, with Spiner and Dorn as other good ones) and Blalock so-so also.

I don't know what Beltran's other work is like, but in VOY he was totally wooden, even on rare occasions when he got something to do (I remember a scene in Equinox when he seemed indifferent during a charged confrontation with Janeway). Maybe he wasn't trying anymore after a while, but I really cannot understand why people praise him, at least based on his work on VOY.

Last year Beltran got VERY good reviews for his performances in two theatre plays in San Francisco and LA.

And for his acting in Voyager- look here
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000296/awards

But I have to agree in that point- he didn`t get much to do in the later seasons of Voyager.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I agree that the best thing about the Sisko is that (unlike the other Captains except for Kirk) he doesn't take any crap from anybody.

You and I often disagree, but on this, we see eye to eye.

Sisko was never a weenie, and he never backed away from a fight. He had a fairly high boiling point, but once that boiling point was reached, you'd not want to be on the other side of the word 'opposition', because Sisko took no crap and put up with no nonsense. Sisko does not suffer fools lightly, ditto for those who lie to him, attempt to manipulate him, or who are generally full of shit.

I loved the occasions where Sisko, in dealing with Dukat, a guy who loved the sound of his own voice, finally reaches his bullshit limit and yells "Dukat - if you have something to say to me, SAY. IT."

Yeah, he is badass in a fight. And yeah, he was cool as a cucumber in battles - even in some of the largest battles of the war.

But his impatience with the bullshitters of the universe was one of my favorite Sisko qualities.

 

[Rek]

made him a god.

If you watch the commentary about the last ep, you get to see them explain why they did it. Pretty much, every Star Trek captain became a "god" to their viewers(not all viewers, of course, but some). So they decided to make Sisko into one as a symbolic gesture to the fans of all the captains.

I didn't love Sisko, but I did like the idea behind what they did.

 

[DevilEyes]

Beltran was the best actor IMO on Voyager. Frakes was so-so (Sir Patrick hands down was the best actor, with Spiner and Dorn as other good ones) and Blalock so-so also.

I don't know what Beltran's other work is like, but in VOY he was totally wooden, even on rare occasions when he got something to do (I remember a scene in Equinox when he seemed indifferent during a charged confrontation with Janeway). Maybe he wasn't trying anymore after a while, but I really cannot understand why people praise him, at least based on his work on VOY.

Last year Beltran got VERY good reviews for his performances in two theatre plays in San Francisco and LA.

As I said, he could very well be great outside VOY, but on VOY, I was very unimpressed. Maybe it was the poor writing and his dissatisfaction with the role that lead to it, but I really can't say he was good in the role when he wasn't.

Beltran was the best actor IMO on Voyager. Frakes was so-so (Sir Patrick hands down was the best actor, with Spiner and Dorn as other good ones) and Blalock so-so also.

I don't know what Beltran's other work is like, but in VOY he was totally wooden, even on rare occasions when he got something to do (I remember a scene in Equinox when he seemed indifferent during a charged confrontation with Janeway). Maybe he wasn't trying anymore after a while, but I really cannot understand why people praise him, at least based on his work on VOY.

Last year Beltran got VERY good reviews for his performances in two theatre plays in San Francisco and LA.

And for his acting in Voyager- look here
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000296/awards

That doesn't really say anything about how his acting in VOY compares to the rest of the cast, does it. It's not like anyone else from the show was eligible for the same category. I'm not even sure how many Hispanic actors played crossover roles on TV those years, so I don't even know if he had to beat any serious competition to be one of the 5 or 6 nominees.

I always thought Robert Picardo was the best actor on Voyager, but i can't remember an episode when Beltran had much to work with. I heard Dorn got arogant and there was far too much of his charachter in ds9. In my opinion the other actors outshone him.

I think as Worf is a very stoical and reserved character, it doesn't show much range for Dorn. but I think in TNG, Worf was written in more comic situations, whilst in DS9 the character wasn't as such. TNG Worf was better written than DS9 Worf, IMO. I guess they had Quark as comic relief, when in TNG Worf was the comic relief character (and Data to some degree).

I don't think I would agree with that. Worf had a lot of comic moments on DS9, mostly with Jadzia. (There's also a very memorable moment in season 4 (I think) when Worf is asked what Klingons dream about and answers in his deadpan way "Things that would send cold chills down your spine, and wake you in the middle of the night. No, it is better you do not know" and Kira says "I never know when he's joking".) He was never the main comic relief on TNG, that was usually Data. Worf's storylines on TNG were at least as dark if not darker than on DS9: refusing to give blood transfusion to save the racist Romulan in The Enemy; the entire story arc with the Klingon politics and the Duras family, including losing K'Ehleyr and avenging her death (he also lost Jadzia on DS9, but there was no revenge story); disrupting if not destroying the harmonious Romulan/Klingon society in Birthright pt 2.

I don't think that Worf was very different on TNG and DS9. The main difference was that, on TNG, he stood out as the edgier character with an alien perspective compared to the rest of the main cast who were all well-adjusted Federation Humans (or half-Humans who didn't really act that differently from the others) and an android whose greatest desire was to be more human. (At least before Ro was added to the cast, but her appearances were not regular.) However, DS9 already had edgier and more ambiguous characters and a lot of alien non-Starfleet characters with different ethics and perspectives in the main cast and prominent recurring characters - and next to Kira, Odo, Quark, Garak, Dukat, Winn, the Cardassians, the Bajorans, the Ferengi, and last but not least, more typical Klingons (Martok), Worf suddenly seemed relatively dull.

I know that a lot of people think that the Worf/Jadzia pairing was not good for Jadzia because her stories were all about Klingons rather than exploring her Trillness, but it was in any case great for Worf, since he didn't really fit that well with the rest of the cast, and their relationship gave him an opportunity for comedy in addition to some occasional drama. If not for that relationships, he would feel out of place on the station. TNG's only major misstep with Worf was pairing him up with Troi. With Worf/Jadzia, he was given a more convincing pairing, somewhat similar to Worf/K'Ehleyr - with a strong woman who was a match for him and challenged him with her more open-minded views and sometimes irreverent attitudes - but more light-hearted and with quite a few comic moments.

 

[flemm]

I know that a lot of people think that the Worf/Jadzia pairing was not good for Jadzia because her stories were all about Klingons rather than exploring her Trillness, but it was in any case great for Worf, since he didn't really fit that well with the rest of the cast, and their relationship gave him an opportunity for comedy in addition to some occasional drama.

I think Worf fit in just fine with the rest of the DS9 cast, moreso in a way than he did with the TNG cast. (I agree with your analysis above that Worf simply stood out less on DS9 than on TNG because the station was already full of alien perspectives and flawed characters.) When Worf first came on the show, the writers seemed to be trying to portray him as an outcast by making him uncomfortable with living on the station and choosing to bunk on the Defiant. But after a while we stop hearing about this because it didn't really make any sense. Basically, the initial plan seems to have been: Worf will be an outcast and a misfit. But then the writers realized: wait, everybody here is a misfit, so there's no reason why Worf would be an outcast.

In fact Worf ended up being more at home on DS9 than anywhere else in the sense that he became a lot more relaxed and comfortable with being a Klingon, especially as he related to Martok. He switches from prune juice to blood wine. He finds true love with Jadzia. As for the rest of the cast, his contempt for Quark was right in line with similar initial reactions from Kira and Odo, as well as Sisko at times. Worf had a lot in common with Odo, a fact that was explored in several comic scenes, including a classic about how to avoid unwanted social occasions. Worf's relationship with Kira as a friend/comrade was never really explored in detail, but there are hints at how interesting it might have been: Worf is the only one who understands why Kira accepts her fate in Children of Time, yet he expresses disgust for guerilla/terrorist tactics in a conversation with Chief O'Brien, who reminds Worf that Kira would take issue. There are several very cool scenes between Sisko and Worf as well. Not to mention Worf's friendship with the Chief that goes back to their days on the Enterprise.

As for my opinion on Worf's relationship with Jadzia, I think it had mixed results. Change of Heart is a pretty strong episode, and I like the Klingon wedding. There's a lot of soap opera clichés in the there as well, but overall it was good that the DS9 writers dared to let the main cast get involved with one another and get past the "unresolved tension" stage. The Worf/Dax relationship never produced anything like Chimera, but nothing ventured, nothing gained: not every idea is going to pan out perfectly. And the writers didn't really seem to have much of a handle on Jadzia anyway, so I'm not sure we missed out on a lot of great Trill material. There's only so many times you can have Jadzia explore her past lives or whatever.

 

[Bones2]

made him a god.

If you watch the commentary about the last ep, you get to see them explain why they did it. Pretty much, every Star Trek captain became a "god" to their viewers(not all viewers, of course, but some). So they decided to make Sisko into one as a symbolic gesture to the fans of all the captains.

I didn't love Sisko, but I did like the idea behind what they did.

I disagree and consider it the most stupid thing in the entire show.