^^Well, as I said, I assumed it was more like 3 weeks for story purposes, since it's still necessary to cram the whole first season into 2364. But aside from that, I sure wouldn't have a problem with 4 months.
The Alpha Cygni (Deneb) System
- Thread starter BrotherBenny
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Yeah, I'm just going with something slightly more realistic. Although I have noticed that 3-4 months is standard to get somewhere which is on the borders of known space, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment in time.
Well, assuming for the moment that stardates actually mean something 
, we have Deneb at SD 41153 and then Gamma Tauri (a star system just about 150ly from Sol) at SD 41386. That's a stardate difference of 233 units, or about 3 months (25% of a year) using the accepted formula.
, we have Deneb at SD 41153 and then Gamma Tauri (a star system just about 150ly from Sol) at SD 41386. That's a stardate difference of 233 units, or about 3 months (25% of a year) using the accepted formula.
^^The problem with first-season TNG stardates, though, is that they aren't in any kind of order. They tried to keep them in numerical order for the first few episodes, but then it got entirely random aside from the first two digits; the episode right after "The Last Outpost" (the 41386 date you mentioned) was down to 41249, then 41255, 41723, 41590, 41309, 41997, 41242, 41636, 41365, etc. Going by stardate order, "The Battle," "The Big Goodbye," "Angel One," and "The Arsenal of Freedom" would all have to take place after Tasha died, but she's in all of them.
Completely true... however, I think it is still a viable upper bound for the time necessary to warp from Deneb to Sol.
Assuming that episode order is the "correct" order instead, there are no big detours on the way, all episodes take place in at least approximately one year and are approximately equally spaced, timewise, we'd end up with a span of 4/25 of a year (~2 months). In this case, our assumptions would leave us with enough wiggle room for either a <1 month trip (your assumption) or a 3 month trip as suggested by SD order.
Assuming that episode order is the "correct" order instead, there are no big detours on the way, all episodes take place in at least approximately one year and are approximately equally spaced, timewise, we'd end up with a span of 4/25 of a year (~2 months). In this case, our assumptions would leave us with enough wiggle room for either a <1 month trip (your assumption) or a 3 month trip as suggested by SD order.
IMNSHO, not at all. That's about the length of time between the commissioning of the Enterprise-D and the first log in "Encounter at Farpoint". In calender terms, from about early October 2363 to late Feb 2364. If you reckon (correctly, in my opinion) as Cid does, that the E can make it back to the neighborhood in less time than that, and therefore capably so at faster speeds, then yeah that makes things even more plausible and easy to manage.
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Why? As far as we know, only "The Neutral Zone" needs to take place in 2364. All the rest, or as much of it as we want, might happen in 2363.
In terms of what stardate corresponds to which annual event, we have three datapoints that would fit best if the stardate year began in late summer - that is, if the stardate year corresponded to the broadcast season. And no datapoint truly requires us to assume any other timing for the stardate year.
As for stardates in general, some of the first season of TNG might work better if we followed stardate order rather than the airdate one (TOS certainly would!). It's a bit annoying that the penultimate scripts you can read at TrekCore either have stardates that would make sense as regards the airing order, or then lack references to stardates altogether where the aired versions have problematic dating...
Timo Saloniemi
The Star Trek Chronology, which is as close to a canon source as we're going to get on this, puts the entire first season in 2364 and states that seasons were supposed to fit within a calendar year. Each episode is set over the course of two weeks, on average.
This does mean, of course, that the Christmas and New Year periods must have been dreaded throughout the Federation since some horrible event seemed to occur around that time almost every year.
This does mean, of course, that the Christmas and New Year periods must have been dreaded throughout the Federation since some horrible event seemed to occur around that time almost every year.
as bad as London at Christmas in Doctor Who...
Yet the Chronology is at odds with the facts on those three points: the dating of the Hindu Festival of Lights in "Data's Day", the sky over France in "Family", and the explicit stardate/Gregorian date correspondence of First Contact in "Homestead". (Also, interpreting the TOS stardates by TNG rules would put Thanksgiving in "Charlie X" close to its correct place, would spread out the episodes to cover the entire 5-year mission, and would separate key episodes sufficiently to solve a few contradictions.)
Adopting the interpretation that TNG S1 covered 2363/64 would fit the facts without contradicting others, while nothing much is won by going the Chronology route.
Timo Saloniemi
Adopting the interpretation that TNG S1 covered 2363/64 would fit the facts without contradicting others, while nothing much is won by going the Chronology route.
Timo Saloniemi
Also: "Second Sight" occurs on the anniversary of "Best of Both Worlds", probably the strongest canonical evidence against the 365 days = 1000 stardates assumption.
At this point, unfortunately, the Chronology's assumptions are probably too entrenched in the fiction for anything to be done about them.
At this point, unfortunately, the Chronology's assumptions are probably too entrenched in the fiction for anything to be done about them.
Yep. It's pretty much policy that Trek Lit authors are supposed to follow the Chronology's suggestions unless they've been contradicted by later canon. In The Buried Age, I would've been happy to put the scenes of Picard taking command of the E-D in late 2363 sometime, but that probably wouldn't have been accepted.
Picard could have taken command in late '63. Since we did not see the ship launch from Utopia Planitia we do not have a definitive launch date and I personally think that we should discount All Good Things... as being apocryphal as it was an alternative timeline.
According to Memory Alpha, the E-D was commissioned in 2363 and presumably launched for its shakedown cruise then, after commissioning. I would have thought that there would be a media presence this is the new flagship and the first Enterprise for twenty years. I cannot believe that after its commissioning it then spent almost two months doing nothing before its first mission as AGT... would have us believe.
Since the timeliners have been busy, I would think that Voyages of Imagination would be more up to date that the Chronology and a better resource for writers.
There's no question that AGT's past portion is in an alternate timeline; the very fact that events happened differently proves that, as do the various contradictions such as Tasha's haircut and O'Brien being main-bridge conn rather than battle bridge. But that's irrelevant to the point, because it was "The Drumhead" that established 41124 as the stardate when Picard took command of the ship, and that's a 2364 date by Okudachron convention.
There was also Picard's story in "Legacy" of how he met Tasha Yar, and how "in the months that followed" she never gave him reason to doubt her. That means she was under his command for less than a year at the time of her death.
I think that commissioning date is non-canonical, coming from the Tech Manual rather than an episode. But as you said, after commissioning would be the shakedown cruise, which wouldn't be a full-on mission, certainly nothing as massive as a journey all the way out to Deneb. Presumably the shakedowns would have been conducted near its home port (in TBA I said they were in Sol's Oort Cloud).
Except that the Pocket Timeline in VotI says nothing on that point, because it only covers episodes, books, and stories (and some of the Wildstorm comics), and VotI came out before The Buried Age and "Meet With Triumph and Disaster" (a story dealing directly with the commissioning of the E-D, I believe) were published.
I've not read "Meet with Triumph and Disaster" and so cannot comment on that, but could the statement in "The Drumhead" be interpreted as the stardate when the E-D actually finished final shakedowns and headed out toward Deneb on its first mission with Picard in command, when he fully assumed command of the ship, rather than when he officially took command before the shakedowns?
If that makes any sense.
If that makes any sense.
doublegood
Fleet Captain
I would hold the stardate mentioned in canon as the official date Picard took command of the USS Enterprise. I'm sure it wasn't the first time he saw the ship or was on the ship, but that is the official date that he was officially known as the captain of the Enterprise. Service records can't be nebulous.
The statement was that he had held the post of the Enterprise's commanding officer since that stardate. I don't think that's compatible with your suggested interpretation.
Besides, why assume he took command before the shakedowns? Even if you disregard the "All Good Things..." flashbacks showing that Picard had never set foot on the Enterprise prior to formally taking command, there's still the fact that in the very first scene of TNG, the teaser of "Farpoint," Picard said in the log that he was still "becoming better acquainted" with his new command. The implication was that he hadn't been aboard her for long.
This is part of why, in the book continuity, he wasn't the E-D's original captain. He was Starfleet's preferred choice for the job, but he declined (for reasons explained in The Buried Age), so Thomas Holloway (the E-D's captain in the alternate "Tapestry" timeline) was given the captaincy. However, Holloway chose to retire, and at that point Picard was ready to change his mind and accept the posting, leaving him little time to prepare before the vessel shipped out. In TBA, he took command in early January 2364, and I assume it took roughly three weeks to reach Deneb at high warp, courtesy of one of those rare high-speed lanes, whose discovery was no doubt the reason Starfleet was interested in exploring so far afield.
See, that's another point. It doesn't track that it would take three or four months to get out to Deneb, because it wasn't just the E-D that was there; the Hood was also there on what seemed to be a routine crew transfer, and Starfleet was planning to make Farpoint Station a major port of call, as well as to initiate a new program of exploration beyond it. All that activity suggests that the Deneb system wasn't that far out of reach -- that, regardless of its real-world distance, it was not prohibitively remote in terms of travel time. The logical interpretation is either that Deneb is closer than we think (which is possible, given the uncertainty in its parallax); that it's one of the other Denebs than Alpha Cygni (although that's not the interpretation I've gone with in my fiction); or that there's a high-speed warp lane leading to it. Whatever the case, I just don't think a journey of several months to Deneb is consistent with the canonical evidence, regardless of how much more sensible it would be aside from that.
The dedication plaque of the Enterprise-D has the launch date listed as stardate 40759.5, that is considered by many to be quite canon, by convention placing it in 2363.
For those curious, the stardate that Picard took command from "The Drumhead", 41124, would by that same convention be something like 10 days before "Encounter at Farpoint". This would also be inconsistent with the SD from "All Good Things..." which placed Picard in command SD 41148, even closer, about 2 days before "...Farpoint" and signed curiously enough by Norah Satie herself. So wackiness abounds, simply placing things within the classic Trek-Pilot-Syndrome.
Long is a relative term.
There's no sense in this, what does the travel time of a starship from Sol to Deneb have anything to do with the location of starships already in the field? Fun speculations aside, the episode said Deneb was the frontier, the episode showed the Hood at Deneb, ergo the Hood was at the frontier. Nothing is said about where Riker, Geordi and the Crushers were prior to that or how long it took them to get there.
This also confuses me, though that isn't saying much, for I'm easily confused. Reach is also relative, the closer you move toward something the easier it is to reach. Wherever you go, there you are.
I'm not sure if I follow that logic. But I do agree with Cid's observation that if the Enterprise can make it back to the "neighborhood" in a little less than 3 months, then it's reasonable that it could easily travel quite in excess of the traditional TNG warpchart's speeds and go to further locale's in a shorter amount of time. I don't think that necessitates any of the three things you suggest, but it is a stronger argument against the idea of Enterprise taking that whole time of 4 mos or so to get there.
If the 10 days prior SD from the Drumhead is to be believed then the E can travel significantly faster then expected, also landing it in the throes of the Trek-Pilot-Syndrome.
Some random sniping:
(To be sure, it never falls on a known stardate, as all the episodes featuring it are free of stardates. But the episodes are bracketed by others in a known sequence of causality, and thus the one in "The Nagus" is in the vague middle of the SD year 46; the one in "Fascination", supposedly the third celebrated aboard the station, is in the mid-(48)400s; the one in "Rapture" is just before the (50)400s; and the one in "Tears of the Prophets" is at the very end of the SD year 51. Perhaps this also explains Molly's rapid aging, birthday-wise if not biologically: her parents are also counting in Bajoran years.)
Timo Saloniemi
We might always argue that Sisko, of Bajor, is already thinking in terms of the Bajoran year. Which, we have reason to suspect, is not the same as the Earth year, as for example the supposedly annual Gratitude Festival doesn't fall on the same stardates in different years. And it's not as subtle as the wandering Easter here on Earth, but instead seems to be all over the place.
(To be sure, it never falls on a known stardate, as all the episodes featuring it are free of stardates. But the episodes are bracketed by others in a known sequence of causality, and thus the one in "The Nagus" is in the vague middle of the SD year 46; the one in "Fascination", supposedly the third celebrated aboard the station, is in the mid-(48)400s; the one in "Rapture" is just before the (50)400s; and the one in "Tears of the Prophets" is at the very end of the SD year 51. Perhaps this also explains Molly's rapid aging, birthday-wise if not biologically: her parents are also counting in Bajoran years.)
Damningly, though, Admiral McCoy was also there, performing a (no doubt ceremonial) inspection of the vessel's "medical layout". It wouldn't make sense to drag the old cripple to the edges of the universe for such a nonsensical job, really.
Timo Saloniemi
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As stated, first-season TNG stardates are almost totally random aside from the first two digits, so they must be considered corrupted data and not relied on for anything (not that any stardates are really reliable -- as I've said before, stardates were created for the express purpose of not being chronologically specific).
We've already established that AGT's flashbacks are in a slightly different reality from the main timeline. And I believe I already mentioned earlier in this thread how I dealt with that stardate in The Buried Age.
Hey! Just because you missed the point doesn't give you the right to say it doesn't make sense. That's just rude.
The point is not about individual ships -- it's about the cumulative degree of activity in the area that the episode implied. The other point is that, going by Star Charts, Deneb is not just on any old frontier -- it's 15-20 times farther away than any other part of the Federation frontier! Having a UFP starship at Deneb is tantamount to having a 17th-century New England colonist travel to the Yukon -- it's a prohibitive journey under normal circumstances, and it jumps over a huge amount of territory that should itself be unexplored. That's the whole reason this thread exists in the first place -- because Deneb is so astonishingly far away compared to every other real star mentioned in Trek, and that's an anomaly that needs to be addressed. This was established way back at the beginning of the conversation. If you've forgotten such a key point, you should probably go back and review the whole thread.
Again, you're missing the point by thinking of it in terms of single ships. I'm talking about the reach of the Federation as a whole, the practicality of supporting regular travel and activity to such a remote location and using it as a staging area for going even farther.
