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The Alpha Cygni (Deneb) System

The concept of warp highways doesn't work if we look at the Trek galaxy as having been inhabited for hundreds of thousands of years. It also seems that the only highways we can safely postulate about are in the Alpha Quadrant, which is silly. Even though Voyager was in the "unexplored" Delta Quadrant, they encountered a number of species that were space-faring--the DQ was only unexplored from a Federation standpoint. Ostensibly, there should have been a similar number of warp highways in the DQ as there were in the AQ. All the ship would have had to do was ask where the highways were and make sure they had toll money.
Some of the spacelanes from ancient cutures might still be undiscoverd by modern space explorers of the 23/24th century. And Voyager did come across a situation exactly like you describe in the episode Dragon's Teeth.
Space is big, and my main beef with ST propulsion is that it's just not fast enough. It would be nearly impossible to run an entity as large as the Federation with ships that moved so slowly. The way it's presented, the galaxy is actually a small place...except for when it needs to be big.

Space is big, which is another reason why some spacelanes and anomalies might go undiscovered. And the most important thing to any story is just that... the story. If the story dictates that the ships fly at, as Christopher calls it, "the speed of plot" , then that's the way it has to be.
 
If the story dictates that the ships fly at, as Christopher calls it, "the speed of plot" , then that's the way it has to be.

That's true. But while Star Trek is interesting in and of itself, it is not a very realistic example of worldbuilding. I prefer something like The Mote in God's Eye. There you have a human empire (thought by all as majestic) that is fairly small compared to the Federation...and in that universe, man has been in interstellar space since the 21st century. Realistically (speaking relatively, as we are discussing a work of fiction), the "Alpha Quadrant" should be mostly unexplored along with the rest of the galaxy, with most of the action taking place within at least 3,000 light years of earth, if not less. The AQ powers should be like Europe before the 20th century, different nations in close proximity jostling for power. This would fit in with the speeds Trek has established. If you think of the "Alpha Quadrant" as a sector of space rather than a quarter of the galaxy, Voyager's plight becomes much, much scarier.
 
The concept of warp highways doesn't work if we look at the Trek galaxy as having been inhabited for hundreds of thousands of years. If the highways are created by heavy use of certain space lanes, there should be a lot more of them by the 24th century...one imagines the galaxy would be saturated with them.

Not sure that holds water. Out entire modern transporation system is, tragically, based on the automobile and similar engines, but there are nonetheless narrow designated areas for such travel; in Trek, these would be areas were local conditions already favours warp travel, and thus there's little need to go looking for 'off-road' routes. As for the historical saturation: if, as my understanding of the TNG episode goes, warp travel 'wounds' local space, and this is what creates the highways, then why couldn't space also 'heal' itself from the effects of warp travel, over time? Like our highways, they become far less effective when they fall into disuse. And since the current Alpha Quadrant species don't seem to have been space-faring all that long, it's quite possible that whatever highways were forged by whatever civilizations existed previously (Iconians, etc.) have been dissolved in the apparent interregnum between their dissapearance and the rise of the Vulcans, etc.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
"Precious Roy, Precious Roy, making lots of suckers out of girls and boys!" -ding-

sorry I couldn't resist!

But back on topic, I'm a bit confused by your statement Roy, are you saying Trek speeds are far too fast, or far too slow? It takes a considerable amount of effort even to travel somewhere further than a 1000 light years. For the Americans here I would liken it to traveling across the country, (minus the possibility of air travel of course) it's something most people are capable of doing, but it's never really done without the expenditure of a significant amount of time and resources.
 
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So that would leave Beta Orionis, at 800 ly, as the only viable location for Rigel VII and probably Rigel XII.

Indeed. However, Pike does not travel to or from Rigel VII within the timeframe of an episode or even a season. And I rather think Rigel VII would fit right in among the other Rigels of "Beta Rigel", a lawless planet among others in a system generally hostile to Federation presence and unlikely to offer medical help to Pike's crew.

Rigel XII is the one truly out in the sticks, a good candidate for Beta Orionis, and "Mudd's Women" is another episode not seriously constrained by stardate limits. Indeed, Kirk might still be on his way back from the galactic rim in that episode, after having his ship extensively repaired in the wake of the "Where No Man" experience.

But even so, most stories would skip over that discussion unless it were a relevant plot point. How often have you seen a show including a scene where the heroes discussed which freeways and roads to take to reach the scene of the crime, rather than just cutting directly from their departure to their arrival? (Well, there's The Incredibles, but aside from that.)

The thing is, most stories don't skip over the part where they say "warp seven" or "123 mark 45". If we get that sort of trivia, we should also get the bit about choosing today's wormhole, er, warp highway.

And choosing the highway would be a relevant plot point (indeed, the relevant plot point) e.g. whenever there was a chase scene that forces our heroes to compromise between speed and heading. That would be a bit analogous to our coppers saying "We can take a shortcut through 93rd and Mallard's and cut that bastard off!", an important and exciting piece of car chase action. Also, seeing which highway the villain chooses would be a telling plot point as well: "Perp's still heading down the Turnpike, doesn't seem he's in any hurry to take an exit."

If warp highways of significant magnitude existed, Star Trek would be a warp highway show, the way SG-1 is a stargate show. Ships wouldn't sail a boundless cosmic ocean any more - they would sail cosmic rivers and canals, only occasionally being dragged across marshlands from one river to another. The format of the show allows for a few fast-track routes, such as the Hekaras corridor, but not for the existence of a fast-track route at an arbitrary spot where it can be utilized in the plot of the week without special mention.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I quite agree about Rigel VII. To date I've heard no compelling or sensible argument for why it shouldn't be a part of the common "Beta Rigel" system. The arguments I have heard have all been rather arbitrary. Certainly, within the licensed fiction, there's much more support for the idea that the world of the Kaylar is a part this system than there is otherwise.
 
According to Star Charts, Alpha Cygni is 3,200 ly from Earth. If that's right, wouldn't it have taken the Enterprise-D three years at maximum warp to reach Farpoint station from its launching point at Earth Station McKinley? (I'm going at this from the 1000 ly = 1yr travel time established in VOY).

And on the same note, how far from Earth is Starbase 52 where the Enterprise stopped en route?
There's really only one way to maintain your sanity when trying to map Star Trek locations to real star maps: "Don't do it, laddie".

The writers threw around astronomical buzzwords while rarely paying attention to travel times except where it was dramatically significant.

Mapping Star Trek space is like mapping Middle Earth or Narnia: there may be some of the same names, but it's its own place and assigning real locations to it is ultimately futile.
 
The concept of warp highways doesn't work if we look at the Trek galaxy as having been inhabited for hundreds of thousands of years. If the highways are created by heavy use of certain space lanes, there should be a lot more of them by the 24th century...one imagines the galaxy would be saturated with them.

Where are you getting the assumption that the highways are created by heavy use? As has been stated above in this thread, the explanation posited in both fan sources like the 1980 Star Trek Maps and behind-the-scenes sources like the TNG Tech Manual is that the differences in effective velocity are a result of differing concentrations of mass and energy, differing subspace curvatures, etc. It's more like the difference between, say, going through the mountains versus going through smooth, open terrain. Indeed, talking about "highways" is overstating the case somewhat.

As for the length of time the galaxy has been inhabited, in The Buried Age I suggested that the ancient Manraloth (who lived hundreds of millions of years ago) constructed a network of subspace highways throughout the galaxy, but that it's deteriorated since then and only fragments of it remain as occasional subspace anomalies and high-speed warp lanes.

It also seems that the only highways we can safely postulate about are in the Alpha Quadrant, which is silly. Even though Voyager was in the "unexplored" Delta Quadrant, they encountered a number of species that were space-faring--the DQ was only unexplored from a Federation standpoint. Ostensibly, there should have been a similar number of warp highways in the DQ as there were in the AQ. All the ship would have had to do was ask where the highways were and make sure they had toll money.

As stated above, we saw exactly this situation in "Dragon's Teeth." As for the spacefaring societies in the DQ, most of those we saw in the early seasons weren't all that advanced and might not have had as good an ability to find these shortcuts as Voyager's sensors would allow. Also, most of those warp shortcuts that were known would probably be in hostile hands (Kazon, Vidiian, Hirogen) and thus not so much of an option to use.

In some of my fiction, I've alluded to expeditions gaining maps and sensor data of new territories to let them plot the fastest warp routes based on the mass/energy distribution, subspace geodesics, etc. Voyager could well have done this and probably did on those few occasions where they met friendly powers. But they didn't meet that many powers that were friendly or whose reach through space was all that extensive.


Realistically (speaking relatively, as we are discussing a work of fiction), the "Alpha Quadrant" should be mostly unexplored along with the rest of the galaxy, with most of the action taking place within at least 3,000 light years of earth, if not less.

That's exactly the case. According to production materials, only about 11 percent of the galaxy had been charted as of the start of TNG, and it was still in single digits in Kirk's time. And every specific real star that's ever been mentioned in a Trek episode (except Deneb, probably, and that was said to be at the very limits of explored space) is well within 3,000 light-years. Antares is only 600 ly away, Rigel is 800, Beta Lyrae and Mintaka 900. Alnitak, "the far left star in Orion's Belt" mentioned in "City on the Edge of Forever," is 800 ly away. Most of the stars named in ST episodes are even closer.

When they talk about the "Alpha Quadrant" in ST, they're not literally referring to the entire quadrant. It's more akin to, say, referring to Europe as "the West" relative to Asia even though it doesn't occupy the entire Western Hemisphere (and indeed is mostly in the Eastern Hemisphere, just as much of the Federation is in the Beta Quadrant). It's just a convenient shorthand. The vast majority of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are still unexplored, and only tiny bits of the Gamma and Delta Quadrants are known as yet.


However, Pike does not travel to or from Rigel VII within the timeframe of an episode or even a season.

In the Early Voyages comics, he effectively does.

And I rather think Rigel VII would fit right in among the other Rigels of "Beta Rigel", a lawless planet among others in a system generally hostile to Federation presence and unlikely to offer medical help to Pike's crew.

But how does that fit with the Rigelians of Rigel V being charter members of the Coalition of Planets a century before "The Cage?" Or with McCoy visiting what was apparently a very friendly cabaret on Rigel II (with very human-appearing chorus girls) within a decade or so after "The Cage?"


The thing is, most stories don't skip over the part where they say "warp seven" or "123 mark 45". If we get that sort of trivia, we should also get the bit about choosing today's wormhole, er, warp highway.

Again, I don't see it in terms of "highways," and absolutely nothing like wormholes. The prevailing theory is that it's more like differences in local space/subspace "terrain." "123 mark 45" is the direction of your destination; it's the navigator's job to choose the best course to reach that destination, which would fairly closely follow that heading but have some variances around it. And according to the TNG TM, warp factors are more measures of power than velocity.

If warp highways of significant magnitude existed, Star Trek would be a warp highway show, the way SG-1 is a stargate show. Ships wouldn't sail a boundless cosmic ocean any more - they would sail cosmic rivers and canals, only occasionally being dragged across marshlands from one river to another. The format of the show allows for a few fast-track routes, such as the Hekaras corridor, but not for the existence of a fast-track route at an arbitrary spot where it can be utilized in the plot of the week without special mention.

I'm not arguing for "significant magnitude," like a factor of 100 or 1000, except in rare cases where the story requires it (and in those cases I just assume the discussion was made offscreen). As I said, it's more like finding the smoothest, most efficient path through hilly terrain.

The bottom line is, the whole concept of warp lanes or highways is an extracanonical attempt to fix a problem in the show. There's no getting around the fact that the producers base their decisions solely on the speed of plot. No, the warp-lane idea is not a perfect fit, because nothing can be. It's not something that can survive being nitpicked down to the last detail, but nothing else in ST can survive that either. It's just a way to take something totally random and try to create the illusion that there's some underlying sense to it. It's not perfect, but it's something. And I'm satisfied with that.
 
I liked what the FASA RPG said about the Rigel system in the two The Orions supplements. I don't recall the specifics right now, but the idea that all our various Rigel planets could be in the same system pretty much worked with what it said.
 
^^But a half-dozen inhabited planets and one borderline-habitable one in a single star system? That's reaching.

Honestly, what is it about the name "Rigel" that kept so many Trek scriptwriters coming back to it over and over, in blithe disregard for its previous uses?
 
^^But a half-dozen inhabited planets and one borderline-habitable one in a single star system? That's reaching.
There was an overt implication that this was not a natural formation.

Honestly, what is it about the name "Rigel" that kept so many Trek scriptwriters coming back to it over and over, in blithe disregard for its previous uses?
It's one of those "space names" that everyone has heard, but they don't clearly identify it with anything. That, and a lack of coordination.
 
^^But a half-dozen inhabited planets and one borderline-habitable one in a single star system? That's reaching.
There was an overt implication that this was not a natural formation.

Never anywhere in canon. Although it's a given that any planets around Beta Orionis would have to be artificial constructs, since a blue giant would have far too short a lifespan for habitable planets to form, let alone for sentient life to evolve naturally. On the plus side, though, it would have a wide enough habitable zone to support multiple planets, although a 12th planet being in that zone is quite unlikely.

Honestly, what is it about the name "Rigel" that kept so many Trek scriptwriters coming back to it over and over, in blithe disregard for its previous uses?
It's one of those "space names" that everyone has heard, but they don't clearly identify it with anything. That, and a lack of coordination.

But why that name so much more than any other of "those 'space names'"? Why is it that there are over half a dozen Rigel planets in various episodes but the same isn't true of Vega or Altair or Polaris?
 
However, Pike does not travel to or from Rigel VII within the timeframe of an episode or even a season.

In the Early Voyages comics, he effectively does.

If Rigel VII is in the "near" system this argument becomes non sequitur. Within the licensed fiction, there's still much more support for the idea that the world of the Kaylar is a part this system than there is otherwise.

And I rather think Rigel VII would fit right in among the other Rigels of "Beta Rigel", a lawless planet among others
But how does that fit with the Rigelians of Rigel V being charter members of the Coalition of Planets a century before "The Cage?" Or with McCoy visiting what was apparently a very friendly cabaret on Rigel II (with very human-appearing chorus girls) within a decade or so after "The Cage?"
The Rigelians of Rigel V may have had a presence during those talks, but very little is known about their participation of even membership in that organization afterward, likewise nothing is even known about the success of the organization itself. We know that after the years of the Romulan War the Federation eventually came to be, but were the Rigelians of Rigel V a part of that founding? The argument doesn't really follow. Coridan also supposedly had a presence at those talks, we know for a fact things didn't exactly go smoothly with them over the intervening century.

As for the very friendly cabaret on Rigel II with very human-appearing chorus girls, this doesn't really mean anything either, lots of aliens look human, lots of Rigelians look human. Even supposing the girls were human, cabarets and resorts the world around are commonly very friendly, and I would imagine that more than a few have american girls as employees, even if the countries they're within aren't uniformly lawful or particularly friendly.

Rigel is a big system. It seems elementary that one or two planets could very well be friendly without necessitating the entire system be so, that's just common sense.
 
^^But a half-dozen inhabited planets and one borderline-habitable one in a single star system? That's reaching.
FASA indicates that the Rigel system was engineered/shaped by some ancient alien race.

Of course, FASA also places the system right on the Federation/Klingon border, and not too distant from the Triangle (and thus, Romulan space), which doesn't really work with the real Rigel, but fits very nicely with "Broken Bow".
 
However, Pike does not travel to or from Rigel VII within the timeframe of an episode or even a season.

In the Early Voyages comics, he effectively does.

If Rigel VII is in the "near" system this argument becomes non sequitur.

I didn't intend it to be, err, sequitur. I was just responding to that specific point without considering how it related to the rest of the discussion. Indeed, I'd say the point I was responding to was just as much a non sequitur to Timo's position.

Actually you're right -- the Early Voyages version is probably more credible if Rigel VII is in the putative "Beta Rigel" system. I'd just prefer not to have more inhabited planets in one system than can be helped.

Within the licensed fiction, there's still much more support for the idea that the world of the Kaylar is a part this system than there is otherwise.

What support is there for that one way or the other in the licensed fic? Are you referring to something from Burning Dreams? Since I can't think of anything besides that and the EV comics that might cover it.

Rigel is a big system. It seems elementary that one or two planets could very well be friendly without necessitating the entire system be so, that's just common sense.

But that's exactly my point. With so many inhabited planets in the system, at least two of which have evidence of being amenable to human/Federation contact within a century of "The Cage," it's highly improbable that all of them would be absolutely unwilling to provide emergency medical care to a Starfleet crew after a contretemps within their own planetary system. It's simple statistics. The more planets you add, the exponentially more unlikely it becomes that all of them would be intractably unfriendly to the point of forcing the Enterprise to travel to a distant system instead. That's just common sense.
 
I think, with my limited knowledge of spatial stuff, that the only natural way for there to be several habitable planets in one system is to have say two planets, a couple of dwarf planets and half the moons around a gas giant all in the habitable zone.
 
I think, with my limited knowledge of spatial stuff, that the only natural way for there to be several habitable planets in one system is to have say two planets, a couple of dwarf planets and half the moons around a gas giant all in the habitable zone.

Most unlikely, since any giant planet big enough to have habitable moons would clear the habitable zone of any other planets. Also, a dwarf planet, by definition (i.e. a spheroid smaller than Mercury), would be too small to hold much of an atmosphere.

But you may be on to something. If the system had one large Jovian in its HZ, that Jovian could potentially have multiple habitable moons around it. Indeed, a second, farther Jovian could potentially have satellites warmed to habitability by tidal stresses. Not sure how reconcilable that is with the sky in Whitlock's Rigel fortress matte painting, though.
 
But you may be on to something. If the system had one large Jovian in its HZ, that Jovian could potentially have multiple habitable moons around it. Indeed, a second, farther Jovian could potentially have satellites warmed to habitability by tidal stresses. Not sure how reconcilable that is with the sky in Whitlock's Rigel fortress matte painting, though.
Hurray, my brain kinda works!! :)

As for the matte painting, it was a cloudy day, so you couldn't see the Jovian bulk, any rings (if they exist) or a dozen moons
 
Well, the problem is that big cratered moon in the sky. It would have to be extraordinarily close to loom that large, and I'm not sure the dynamics of such a system would allow passes that close, or would allow a pair of twin worlds sharing an orbit.

Also there's what looks like it might be a ringed world in the upper left corner of the image, though the "rings" are diffuse and hazy enough that it could be a moon passing through a broader dust ring around the planet and illuminating the portion around it through reflected light.

The ironic thing is, sci-fi artists are always putting huge moons or planets in alien skies to make them look more unearthly, but in reality, it would probably be rare to find a world with a much larger moon in its sky than our own. Luna is very, very big for a moon, especially in proportion to its primary (Earth).
 
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