The Alpha Cygni (Deneb) System

[foravalon]

Within the licensed fiction, there's still much more support for the idea that the world of the Kaylar is a part this system than there is otherwise.

What support is there for that one way or the other in the licensed fic? Are you referring to something from Burning Dreams? Since I can't think of anything besides that and the EV comics that might cover it.

I don't even recall anything from Burning Dreams, but offhand, the obvious examples would be the The Worlds of the Federation and the recent IDW comic Intelligence Gathering #2 "A Matter of Dates", both of which imply a connection between the Kaylar and other types of well known Rigellians.

Aside from "The Cage", the only other canon appearance of a Kaylar was the one on Triskelion. On DS9, shipping supplies from Triskelion were often seen, at least somewhat implying that, as a world actively involved in trade, it was reasonably close. This is a theory supported in John Ford's The Final Reflection, which mentioned active trade involved between Triskelion and the Klingon Empire before Kirk's era.

The Vulcan's Soul books further pin down the location of Triskelion to the regions of space roughly between Vulcan and Romulus, and relatively near the real star Ankaa, it's implied in these books and that the Pre-Romulan ships were never able to travel much faster than the speed of light, if even that, so that definitely narrows the field.

Working off the only info we've ever been given about Triskelion from TOS, and supported by the scenes from the Vulcan's Soul books, it seems that most of their imported thralls were obtained from traps set around the local region of about a dozen light years or so. Given the presented information, it seems reasonable to assume that a Kaylar thrall would be obtained locally from one of these traps, if not through direct slave trade from the region of the fictional "Beta Rigel" system.

 

[foravalon]

But that's exactly my point. With so many inhabited planets in the system, at least two of which have evidence of being amenable to human/Federation contact within a century of "The Cage," it's highly improbable that all of them would be absolutely unwilling to provide emergency medical care to a Starfleet crew after a contretemps within their own planetary system. It's simple statistics. The more planets you add, the exponentially more unlikely it becomes that all of them would be intractably unfriendly to the point of forcing the Enterprise to travel to a distant system instead. That's just common sense.

That's true enough, on other hand, whether Pike was coming from the real Rigel or the fictional Beta Rigel, ferrying the injured and sick, it's pretty silly for him to try taking them all the way to Vega instead of just stopping off at Earth along the way since, y'know, Vega is almost exactly opposite Sol from that direction. Silly Cap'n Pike, maybe you did need a holiday.

 

[Christopher]

I don't even recall anything from Burning Dreams, but offhand, the obvious examples would be the The Worlds of the Federation and the recent IDW comic Intelligence Gathering #2 "A Matter of Dates", both of which imply a connection between the Kaylar and other types of well known Rigellians.

Worlds of the Federation isn't licensed fiction. Well, it's sort of fictional, but it's "fictional nonfiction" like the tech manuals. It's also decades out of date and has been contradicted by any number of things by now.

Aside from "The Cage", the only other canon appearance of a Kaylar was the one on Triskelion.

Except that Kloog was never canonically identified as a Kaylar. For that matter, despite what Memory Alpha says (or said, since I just edited the article), Kloog doesn't even look like a Kaylar; he has tusklike incisors and big bushy eyebrows, neither of which was an attribute of the Kaylar warrior in "The Cage."

That's true enough, on other hand, whether Pike was coming from the real Rigel or the fictional Beta Rigel, ferrying the injured and sick, it's pretty silly for him to try taking them all the way to Vega instead of just stopping off at Earth along the way since, y'know, Vega is almost exactly opposite Sol from that direction. Silly Cap'n Pike, maybe you did need a holiday.

Well... if there are all these Rigels and Denebs around, maybe there's more than one Vega. Heck, we know of a Delta Vega. Or maybe the Vega Colony was founded by someone of Hispanic stock who was named Vega, rather than orbiting the star named Vega.

 

[doublegood]

I should say that I am not exactly an expert on the workings of the Star Trek universe, so anything I'm adding to the conversation is purely crappy speculation.

I just personally like the idea that the great majority of the galaxy is unexplored. I just never got that impression from any Trek product since the original series. TNG definitely could have explored that idea, but it seemed content to muck around in the Federation's backyard. And in my opinion, Voyager never seemed all that far from home.

 

[foravalon]

I don't even recall anything from Burning Dreams, but offhand, the obvious examples would be the The Worlds of the Federation and the recent IDW comic Intelligence Gathering #2 "A Matter of Dates", both of which imply a connection between the Kaylar and other types of well known Rigellians.

Worlds of the Federation isn't licensed fiction. Well, it's sort of fictional, but it's "fictional nonfiction" like the tech manuals. It's also decades out of date and has been contradicted by any number of things by now.

Is that like "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"? If you say so, but what does that have to do with anything?

Whatever you'd like to call the book, it's licensed and it's fiction. I said that within the licensed fiction, there's much more support for the idea that the world of the Kaylar is a part the common Rigel system than there is for any idea otherwise. You asked for examples. What part of this makes that statement untrue?

Aside from "The Cage", the only other canon appearance of a Kaylar was the one on Triskelion.

Except that Kloog was never canonically identified as a Kaylar. For that matter, despite what Memory Alpha says (or said, since I just edited the article), Kloog doesn't even look like a Kaylar; he has tusklike incisors and big bushy eyebrows, neither of which was an attribute of the Kaylar warrior in "The Cage."

That's true enough, on other hand, whether Pike was coming from the real Rigel or the fictional Beta Rigel, ferrying the injured and sick, it's pretty silly for him to try taking them all the way to Vega instead of just stopping off at Earth along the way since, y'know, Vega is almost exactly opposite Sol from that direction. Silly Cap'n Pike, maybe you did need a holiday.

Well... if there are all these Rigels and Denebs around, maybe there's more than one Vega. Heck, we know of a Delta Vega. Or maybe the Vega Colony was founded by someone of Hispanic stock who was named Vega, rather than orbiting the star named Vega.

I believe the principle of Occam's Razor, which some people are so fond of citing around here, applies quite nicely in this situation.

 

[Christopher]

Is that like "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"? If you say so, but what does that have to do with anything?

Whatever you'd like to call the book, it's licensed and it's fiction.

Actually, it isn't, not by the standard definition of the word. Just because something is fictitious doesn't mean it's a work of the genre called fiction. The most common definition of "fiction" is:

the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiction

"Narration" doesn't include something in the form of a reference work. It means a story. So as a rule, when people talk about "Star Trek fiction," they mean ST novels and short stories, not in-universe reference books.

That's true enough, on other hand, whether Pike was coming from the real Rigel or the fictional Beta Rigel, ferrying the injured and sick, it's pretty silly for him to try taking them all the way to Vega instead of just stopping off at Earth along the way since, y'know, Vega is almost exactly opposite Sol from that direction. Silly Cap'n Pike, maybe you did need a holiday.

Well... if there are all these Rigels and Denebs around, maybe there's more than one Vega. Heck, we know of a Delta Vega. Or maybe the Vega Colony was founded by someone of Hispanic stock who was named Vega, rather than orbiting the star named Vega.[/quote]I believe the principle of Occam's Razor, which some people are so fond of citing around here, applies quite nicely in this situation.[/QUOTE]

I believe it's all a total mess that can never be adequately explained, and it's silly to quibble over the details of whatever half-assed rationalizations we try to concoct. Bottom line, it's all stuff people made up, it never happened, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter how you slice it, and any attempt to explain it away is simply a creative exercise.

 

[foravalon]

Anyway you wanna cut it, chief.

 

[doublegood]

I believe it's all a total mess that can never be adequately explained, and it's silly to quibble over the details of whatever half-assed rationalizations we try to concoct. Bottom line, it's all stuff people made up, it never happened, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter how you slice it, and any attempt to explain it away is simply a creative exercise.

Well, yeah, unless the Star Trek universe is an example of pantheistic solipsism...in which case you should be very careful what you write.

 

[Timo]

That's true enough, on other hand, whether Pike was coming from the real Rigel or the fictional Beta Rigel, ferrying the injured and sick, it's pretty silly for him to try taking them all the way to Vega instead of just stopping off at Earth along the way since, y'know, Vega is almost exactly opposite Sol from that direction.

If we assume that Rigel VII is in the Beta Rigel system, then travel times won't be much of an issue. Archer got there in a couple of days; Pike could get from there to Earth, or Vega, or Arcturus, or any nearby location with the called-for medical facilities, within that time or faster. The immediate wounds would already be treated, as we see with the bandages on the crew. The non-immediate ones could apparently wait.

Indeed, Pike felt he could spare the day or several it took to divert the ship to Talos, so there was no real medical emergency there. Vega was probably simply the place with the best facilities to treat the specific kind of injuries Crewman Deadmeat (currently happily in stasis) had received. The fact that Vega rather than Earth was chosen would nicely match the fact that Vega rather than Rigel V was chosen...

While we are perhaps supposed to get the impression that Pike is really far out in deep space all on his own, nothing in the story structure dictates this. We could be witnessing a relatively young and untested skipper (with very little brass on his sleeves!) doing a milk run that goes badly wrong, and limping back home with his tail between his legs. Dozens of other starships could be plying the space around him, but he would have no reason to really call for help, and little motivation to discuss his recent blunders with outsiders. His isolation would be psychological rather than physical.

When encountering the exotic SOS by sheer chance, and after having a few drinks for courage, he'd be quite ready psychologically to get active again, and jump the possibly significant distance to Talos because he both could afford the diversion and would need it.

Of course, it would perhaps be easier on our poor brains if we could argue that Pike was the only Starfleet representative within dozens if not hundreds of lightyears, because then it would make more sense that the Talosian SOS had caught nobody else. Why would the Talosians have to wait that long for their second set of human victims if they could prey on the busy Earth/Beta Rigel route?

Then again, what if this was the Talosians' first try ever? We have no evidence they were responsible for luring in and crashing the Columbia. We have no proof that the other specimen in their menagerie were kidnap victims from outside the planet. And we have no evidence of a long-ongoing kidnap program. Possibly the thought of finding a breeding companion for Vina had only occurred to them recently?

As for the warp highways issue:

I'm not arguing for "significant magnitude," like a factor of 100 or 1000, except in rare cases where the story requires it (and in those cases I just assume the discussion was made offscreen). As I said, it's more like finding the smoothest, most efficient path through hilly terrain.

That I have no problem with. OTOH, that sort of variance in warp speed doesn't solve the "big problems", not in the way that we could accept both Okudaic speeds and a four-day Earth-to-Qo'noS-via-Beta-Rigel trip. And if the variance is that small, it's quite possible that our heroes pay no heed to it in their day-to-day navigation, and the course and warp speed settings we hear in the dialogue are indeed the end-all of it, there being no unvoiced subtlety. The smoothest paths would only feature when the ship is to engage in long distance travel from A to B, which is a relatively rare event (and indeed gets some dialogue when it is done in VOY).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

Whatever you'd like to call the book, it's licensed and it's fiction. I said that within the licensed fiction, there's much more support for the idea that the world of the Kaylar is a part the common Rigel system than there is for any idea otherwise.

Ah, but IIRC, it's also a licensed work that carries the infamous disclaimer - that it doesn't necessarily jibe with the ST universe of Gene Roddenberry.

 

[Christopher]

While we are perhaps supposed to get the impression that Pike is really far out in deep space all on his own, nothing in the story structure dictates this. We could be witnessing a relatively young and untested skipper (with very little brass on his sleeves!) doing a milk run that goes badly wrong, and limping back home with his tail between his legs.

Okay, I'm coming around to the idea of Rigel VII being at a nearby "Rigel" (say Mu Virginis, which is slightly closer to Vega than it is to Earth, 57 ly vs. 61). After all, the Columbia was able to get there, and it was evidently a significantly slower ship than the Enterprise (because it was launched before the "time barrier" was broken, whatever the hell that means).

Of course, it would perhaps be easier on our poor brains if we could argue that Pike was the only Starfleet representative within dozens if not hundreds of lightyears, because then it would make more sense that the Talosian SOS had caught nobody else. Why would the Talosians have to wait that long for their second set of human victims if they could prey on the busy Earth/Beta Rigel route?

If the E had diverted from Mu Virginis toward Vega, that would be taking it at about a 24-degree angle off course from Earth. Maybe more if it was following some curved subspace geodesic.

Then again, what if this was the Talosians' first try ever? We have no evidence they were responsible for luring in and crashing the Columbia. We have no proof that the other specimen in their menagerie were kidnap victims from outside the planet. And we have no evidence of a long-ongoing kidnap program. Possibly the thought of finding a breeding companion for Vina had only occurred to them recently?

The implication in the episode was that the other specimens were the descendants of species brought back to Talos IV during their starfaring period several hundred thousand years in the past. Although that is a rather long time for a species to survive in captivity.

I'm not arguing for "significant magnitude," like a factor of 100 or 1000, except in rare cases where the story requires it (and in those cases I just assume the discussion was made offscreen). As I said, it's more like finding the smoothest, most efficient path through hilly terrain.

That I have no problem with. OTOH, that sort of variance in warp speed doesn't solve the "big problems", not in the way that we could accept both Okudaic speeds and a four-day Earth-to-Qo'noS-via-Beta-Rigel trip. And if the variance is that small, it's quite possible that our heroes pay no heed to it in their day-to-day navigation, and the course and warp speed settings we hear in the dialogue are indeed the end-all of it, there being no unvoiced subtlety. The smoothest paths would only feature when the ship is to engage in long distance travel from A to B, which is a relatively rare event (and indeed gets some dialogue when it is done in VOY).

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. As for the "big problems," those crop up infrequently enough that they could be justified in terms of the occasional isolated high-speed lane (such as that mentioned explicitly at the start of one of the SCE stories, I forget which one). Although personally I prefer to regard things like "Magicks of Megas-tu" and ST V as apocryphal, because they have numerous conceptual problems in addition to their easy access to the galactic core.

 

[Timo]

ST5 is perhaps the easier of those to explain away, as it involves an almost self-confessed madman. Obviously his ideas should be viewed with suspicion, and we could very well assume that our heroes don't want to explicitly contradict him even when he speaks silly things.

But "Magicks" isn't too difficult, either. After establishing that our heroes want to observe events in the center of our galaxy, it has Sulu declaring "Galaxy center, Captain!". Does that mean he has piloted the ship to the exact centerpoint of Milky Way, or does he merely say "Center of the galaxy now on viewers, Captain!"? We could quite painlessly go against writer intention here and accept the latter.

The implication in the episode was that the other specimens were the descendants of species brought back to Talos IV during their starfaring period several hundred thousand years in the past.

Certainly so. However, the collection could simply be what remains of native Talosian fauna, consisting solely of species unsuited for slave labor. (That feathered thing wouldn't even need a prayer; a wing would suffice for disqualifying it from carrying bricks for the new Talosian capital, or from toiling in the fields.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

ST5 is perhaps the easier of those to explain away, as it involves an almost self-confessed madman. Obviously his ideas should be viewed with suspicion, and we could very well assume that our heroes don't want to explicitly contradict him even when he speaks silly things.

Except the "Great Barrier" thing isn't just Sybok's rhetoric, it's physically there.

Besides, even if you ignored the 100-story-high turboshaft, there's the little issue of an antimatter warhead (photon torpedo) detonating about 20 meters behind our heroes and leaving them completely unharmed.

But "Magicks" isn't too difficult, either. After establishing that our heroes want to observe events in the center of our galaxy, it has Sulu declaring "Galaxy center, Captain!". Does that mean he has piloted the ship to the exact centerpoint of Milky Way, or does he merely say "Center of the galaxy now on viewers, Captain!"? We could quite painlessly go against writer intention here and accept the latter.

Except the entire episode is heavily dependent upon the old Hoylean continuous-creation theory of cosmology, postulating new matter being spewed out of the centers of galaxies. That's tantamount to having an entire episode set in the jungles of Venus. It's a completely discredited notion, and the acceptance of Big Bang cosmology in the rest of Trek makes it impossible to consider "Megas-tu" as anything but an apocryphal tale.

 

[foravalon]

When encountering the exotic SOS by sheer chance, and after having a few drinks for courage, he'd be quite ready psychologically to get active again, and jump the possibly significant distance to Talos because he both could afford the diversion and would need it.

Wasn't the implication that Talos was 18lys from the E's present location? Regular radio signal right, sent 18 years before? About a sector away, not too bad, just never (supposedly) ventured toward.

 

[Christopher]

^^That's true, but I think Timo's assuming that the radio signal was faked by the Talosians as a lure, raising the question of why they didn't try such a ruse earlier. Although I suspect that the signal, at least, may have been genuine. The SS Columbia did really crash, with Vina as the only survivor. It's likely they sent out a genuine distress signal in 2236, which reached the Enterprise en route to Vega Colony 18 years later. Whereupon the Talosians took advantage of the opportunity to add to their collection of humans.

 

[foravalon]

Even if it was faked, it was still the illusion of a radio signal sent from 18 years before, and therefore 18lys distant.

 

[Timo]

Except the "Great Barrier" thing isn't just Sybok's rhetoric, it's physically there.

Ah, but the question is, physically where?

Between Nimbus III and the center of the galaxy? No prob. At the center of the galaxy? Nobody said that. Instead, Kirk said that the Barrier blocks access to the center of the galaxy. Similarly, one might say that I'm prevented from walking to Guatemala because the Baltic Sea doesn't allow for walking. Doesn't mean the Baltic Sea would be washing on the shores of Guatemala; it's just something that stops me before I can even really start.

Besides, even if you ignored the 100-story-high turboshaft, there's the little issue of an antimatter warhead (photon torpedo) detonating about 20 meters behind our heroes and leaving them completely unharmed.

To be sure, I have those things detonating not two meters away from me right now. It helps with my survival that their yield is on the order of two atomic mass units, as opposed to 1.5 kilograms. And the yield of Trek torpedoes is supposed to be variable as well.

Except the entire episode is heavily dependent upon the old Hoylean continuous-creation theory of cosmology, postulating new matter being spewed out of the centers of galaxies. That's tantamount to having an entire episode set in the jungles of Venus. It's a completely discredited notion, and the acceptance of Big Bang cosmology in the rest of Trek makes it impossible to consider "Megas-tu" as anything but an apocryphal tale.

But Trek discredits today's science anyway, and seemingly un-discredits yesterday's science like the idea of aether or similar fixed frame of reference. All of Trek is fundamentally "apocryphal" in that sense.

In the framework of the Trek description of the universe, there's no particular reason why matter could not be born in the center of our galaxy, without major cosmological implications. And I see no particular reason to tie together the speed datapoint content, the pseudoscientific content and the dramatic content of an episode: one can be evaluated without dwelling on the other, except perhaps when analysis of the dramatic content directly indicates that the entire thing is a dream, a deliberate fakery or otherwise not to be trusted.

Even if it was faked, it was still the illusion of a radio signal sent from 18 years before, and therefore 18lys distant.

Quite correct, and good point. Pike would have noticed something amiss if the location of the supposed origin of the signal didn't match the crash date they got from their own records. So Talos would have to sit fairly close to the route between Rigel VII and the Vega colony.

If the first part of the signal were genuine, then the Talosians must have acted really swiftly to send the second, clearly faked part that indicated survivors. OTOH, the Talosian mind powers seem to have a vast range in "The Menagerie", making Kirk see a fake Mendez in a shuttlecraft next to Starbase 11. They could thus easily have faked the entirety of the radio signal and sent the fake mental image out 18 years after the crash at superluminal velocities. But that would still leave Talos 18 ly from the route. Perhaps a bit close for comfort - but if the Talosians didn't otherwise make interstellar noises, their barren little planet might have attracted nobody's attention in a neighborhood rife with better M-class worlds.

Indeed, the Talosians might have protected their planet against attention through their powers of illusion at all times, except when luring in the most recent set of victims. And Pike's ship could still have been their first and only victim.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

And I see no particular reason to tie together the speed datapoint content, the pseudoscientific content and the dramatic content of an episode: one can be evaluated without dwelling on the other, except perhaps when analysis of the dramatic content directly indicates that the entire thing is a dream, a deliberate fakery or otherwise not to be trusted.

I'm not "tying them together." I'm simply stating that I have reasons other than the trips to the galactic center to consider that episode and that movie apocryphal.

 

[Timo]

Fair enough. It just seems that every episode and movie features enough assorted pet peeves to be discredited if need be. Things are difficult enough when we have a statistical spread of datapoints with a couple of infamous outliers. If we twist that dataset by picking and choosing the episodes according to our personal tastes, it doesn't exactly help with things. I mean, it may help a lot for every single picker-and-chooser in turn, but these people can't then come to agree on anything...

...Which, I guess, doesn't exactly come as news. But I'd still like to do my usual twisting of the evidence on the whole pool of evidence, rather than a pre-twisted subset.

That said, I often find the most interesting and surprising tidbits on ST technology and science come from the worst-written episodes. Accidental science fiction at its best! Thus I'd very much like to work things from ST5, or "Magics", or "That Which Survives" or "Lights of Zetar" or "Paradise Syndrome" into the theory of everything, even if they come with a baggage of peeves.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BrotherBenny]

Regarding my original post, if I said 4 months travel time from Earth to Alpha Cygni, that wouldn't be stretching the imagination too far would it?