The Admiral Clancy Character

[flandry84]

SI is an intelligence organisation (allegedly).The degree to which they are comprised is ridiculous.
Respectfully but if they were building off what went before they could have presented a war weary and suspicious Starfleet refusing to engage with the Romulan evacuation instead of having to construct the previously unknown Zhat Vash business.

But ok,let’s drop this line.

 

[fireproof78]

SI is an intelligence organisation (allegedly).The degree to which they are comprised is ridiculous.
Respectfully but if they were building off what went before they could have presented a war weary and suspicious Starfleet refusing to engage with the Romulan evacuation instead of having to construct the previously unknown Zhat Vash business.

Except, Starfleet rarely has that suspicious streak run for long. As I said, people who are suspicious often get accused of being on a "witch hunt" and result in damaging their credibility. The recent loss of life and turnover would also make it easier for Romulans to find in roads in to Starfleet Intelligence and other possible ways to infiltrate. Suspicious is just not their way.

 

[flandry84]

So less George Smiley and more George Costanza.
Hopefully 31 gets all the smart ones.

 

[fireproof78]

So less George Smiley and more George Costanza.
Hopefully 31 gets all the smart ones.

More that they have a different point of view that others do. Section 31 is the division that people go to because they 'want to get shit done." Think the NID from Stargate SG-1. If a society won't provide them the tech to defend Earth than they'll just take it and damn be the consequences. However, as Colonel O'Neill notes "We don't need their stuff; we do need them." That's the essence of the foundation of the Federation and Starfleet-an alliance of mutual cooperation. And sometimes you get burned by it. How much do you intend to lay at the feet of Clancy because Starfleet was trying to get back to a sense of normal exploration post the Dominion War? Sorry, you are not paranoid enough to be CiC.

 

[Sci]

So....”it was like this when I got here”??!
My point about the Dominion war was not made in vain.Real world this for a minute.
If Starfleet hadn’t done a root and branch review of security measures during and in the wake of a war against a shapeshifting enemy then that is incredible incompetence.Incredible as in not credible.

DS9 made it pretty clear that Starfleet did an extensive root-and-branch review of security measures in the years leading up to the Dominion War.

Nedar was just that good.

But blood tests would do dick all to help against Romulan infiltrators, whom had been de facto allies for a time in the Dominion War. So, this idea that somehow they could runaround on a flushing mission would turn in to the very witch hunt Admiral Sati was accused of doing, and potentially ruined the lives of other officers in the process. In addition, as noted above, the Romulans are extremely good at this infiltration business, as evidenced by the Vulcan ambassador who was in deep cover for a time. So, Vulcan's security measures are apparently extremely poor too.

Pedantic side note: I'm pretty sure Selok's identity as T'Pel of Vulcan was supposed to be an ambassador of the UFP who was Vulcan rather than an ambassador of the Vulcan polity. In that instance, she would have been subject to Federation security measures, not Vulcan security measures.

SI is an intelligence organisation (allegedly).The degree to which they are comprised is ridiculous.

I dunno. It doesn't look implausible to me, given the degree to which real-life intelligence agencies leak and get compromised. I mean, Hell -- how many times did Kim Philby come under suspicion before MI6 was finally like, "Oh, hey, I think this man is a Soviet agent!" ?

So less George Smiley and more George Costanza.
Hopefully 31 gets all the smart ones.

I doubt it. Canonically, we have seen Section 31 undertake eight operations, and six of them have had disastrous unintended consequences:

• Their decision to allow Klingon agents to abduct Phlox from Earth in order to coerce him into assisting in curing the Augment virus in 2154 directly led to the greater Klingon hostility towards the Federation in the 23rd Century, as Klingons viewed the subsequent mutations the virus produced as a threat to their purity created by the Federation (ENT: "Affliction/Divergence," DIS: "The Vulcan Hello"/"Battle at the Binary Stars") This led to the Federation/Klingon War of 2256-2257 that nearly led to the collapse of the Federation and conquest of Earth (DIS: "Will You Take My Hand?")
• Their attempt to use the artificial intelligence known as Control to automate a vast number of command decisions across Starfleet in 2257 instead led to Control going rogue, the murders of almost all Section 31 personnel at their headquarters, and the attempted extermination of all life in the Milky Way Galaxy (DIS: "Project Daedalus," "Such Sweet Sorrow," et al S2)
• In 2259 of the Kelvin Timeline, their attempt to use the recovered Augment known as Khan Noonien Sign to provoke a war with the Klingon Empire (which they could use as a pretext to overthrow the Federation government) led instead to Khan's bombing the Kelvin Memorial Archive and then crashing the Section 31 ship USS Vengeance into downtown San Francisco, likely killing thousands of innocent Federation civilians (Star Trek Into Darkness)

• Their attempt to kidnap and indoctrinate Julian Bashir into joining their organization in 2374 failed utterly and instead led him to start opposing them at every turn (DS9: "Inquisition")

• Their attempt to overthrow Senator Cretek and install their mole Tal Shiar Chair Koval onto the Continuing Committee was initially successful in 2375, but Koval was a subsequent failure -- he failed to predict or impede the rise of Shinzon, and then in 2379 he failed to prevent Shinzon's agent Tal'Aura from assassinating the entire Romulan Senate, he failed to prevent Shinzon from seizing power as Praetor, and he failed to prevent Shinzon from threatening the Federation (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges;" NEM)

• Their attempt to infect the Great Link with the changeling virus only prompted the Female Shapeshifter to order outnumbered and outgunned Dominion forces in orbit of Cardassia to give the Allies a Pyrrhic victory after Dominion forces had been defeated by conventional means. A horrific bloodbath was only averted when Odo agreed to give the Founders the cure (DS9: "Extreme Measures," "The Dogs of War," "What You Leave Behind")

• Their genocide attempt also provoked the Female Shapeshifter into ordering the attempted extermination of the Cardassian species in the final hours of the war, leading to hundreds of millions of deaths at minimum ("What You Leave Behind")

Literally the only successful Section 31 operations we have seen that did not have dire unintended consequences were the decision to give the Enterprise NX-01 team the info they needed to defeat Terra Prime on Mars (ENT: "Terra Prime") and Mirror-Phillipa's mission to protect Chancellor L'Rell from rivals for the Klingon throne (DIS: "Point of Light").

That's a really bad track record. Section 31 are not the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree.

 

[flandry84]

You seem to be going out of your way to portray Starfleet as a happy go lucky bunch of gentlemen explorers and amateur spaceship club.Not an organisation charged with the protection of billions.
Okay the writers seem to agree with you but man okay.

It seems that just as the Borg are the only ones who can adapt and modify their weapons and tactics so too are the Romulans and Cardassians the only ones who “do” intel and espionage.

Well okay ,happy go lucky yourself into another couple of wars and intelligence ambushes.You win buddy.

 

[fireproof78]

You seem to be going out of your way to portray Starfleet as a happy go lucky bunch of gentlemen explorers and amateur spaceship club.Not an organisation charged with the protection of billions.
Okay the writers seem to agree with you but man okay.

It seems that just as the Borg are the only ones who can adapt and modify their weapons and tactics so too are the Romulans and Cardassians the only ones who “do” intel and espionage.

Well okay ,happy go lucky yourself into another couple of wars and intelligence ambushes.You win buddy.

No, not really. I'm working with the reality as portrayed on screen. And what is happening is a delicate balancing act of the multiple jobs Starfleet is charged with, while holding up the values of mutual cooperation and trust that the Federation and Starfleet espouse. It's not that they don't modify their tactics, but that they are couched against a more cautious approach of distrusting their officers.

Now, as demonstrated repeatedly, Starfleet will suffer with struggles from their admirals who get in to that position and can't handle the pressure, feeling the need to take things in to their own hands to make it work. But, that doesn't mean you swing the opposite direction of paranoia. It's about balance.

Also, speaking of balance, it's also about drama, which is a part of this whole fiction thing. Which is why I go back to what has been done before. We're so quick to judge Admiral Clancy for failures not her own, but ignore other failures on the part of Starfleet or Federation members? This is pretty much baked in to Star Trek now.

 

[fireproof78]

, you mean to tell me that Chekov back in the 2260's could detect a Romulan, but Fleet Staff at Starfleet HQ in the 2390's couldn't?

No, they couldn't, since Vulcans didn't detect their ambassador was a spy. I'll fire Clancy when the Vulcan Defense Minister is fired.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Spock was half human.

 

[Jinn]

I'm not sure why we're assuming that Oh just walked into Starfleet Academy one day with no biological alterations whatsoever. If the Klingons of the 2250s can make a convincing human out of a Klingon, surely the late 24th century Romulans can make a Romulan/Vulcan hybrid medically appear as a Vulcan. Same goes for Selok.

 

[The Wormhole]

SI is an intelligence organisation (allegedly).

What's so "allegedly" about that? Starfleet Intelligence is an intelligence organization. It's literally in the name. Don't know how much more definitive and concrete it can get.

I'm not sure why we're assuming that Oh just walked into Starfleet Academy one day with no biological alterations whatsoever. If the Klingons of the 2250s can make a convincing human out of a Klingon, surely the late 24th century Romulans can make a Romulan/Vulcan hybrid medically appear as a Vulcan. Same goes for Selok.

I figured Oh probably had a cover story to explain the Romulan genetics, one parent was a Romulan defector, or the Vulcan parent was held prisoner by the Romulans and she was conceived as a result. Hell, maybe one of those two scenarios really is what happened. Sort of a hiding in plain sight kind of deal. "This one has Romulan DNA and was upfront about it. Anyone who draws attention to themselves like that can't be a spy."

 

[fireproof78]

But yet Chekov was able to pick Spock out of a bunch of Romulans?

Tell you what: let's just fire the whole bunch of them and start over with Tribbles.

This assumes that the Romulans couldn't make changes to be less detectable. Technology and growth are not static.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, Spock isn't a Vulcan.

 

[Danja]

So what's his other half then, Ferengi?

His mother is/was human

 

[fireproof78]

So what's his other half then, Ferengi?

Cro-Magnon on his mother's side.

 

[Sci]

The thing is, Romulans did have differences in their physiology that could be detected-

Which never made any damn sense. The gene pools of Afro-Eurasians and of Indigenous Americans were separated for a lot longer than the Vulcan and Romulan gene pools -- does that mean the 1701's sensors could detect the difference between an Afro-Eurasian and an Indigenous American?

Far more sensible to assume that Vulcans and Romulans register as the same species on a scan -- because they are the same species -- and that the Enterprise was able to pick out Spock not because he was Vulcan but because he was half-Human.

So, you mean to tell me that Chekov back in the 2260's could detect a Romulan, but Fleet Staff at Starfleet HQ in the 2390's couldn't?

Yes, because it was an absurdly un-scientific contrivance that the Enterprise could detect biological differences between gene pools separated by less than 2,000 years when they wrote "The Enterprise Incident" back in the 60s, and that contrivance was so un-scientific and stupid that it ought to be ignored in all future Star Trek productions. Retcon it as Chekov could detect Spock's half-Human physiology and make it clear in any future episode that Vulcans and Romulans register as identical on scans.

With that said: why is Admiral Clancy still working for Starfleet?

1) We do not know that she is.

2) If she is, it would be because the Federation is controlled by rational people rather than reactionaries looking for a scapegoat.

 

[The Old Mixer]

One thing to keep in mind about "The Enterprise Incident" is that TOS never specified how long the Vulcans and Romulans had been separated. They did hint that it went back to Sargon's time. It was TNG that established a less significant 2000 years.

 

[Sci]

One thing to keep in mind about "The Enterprise Incident" is that TOS never specified how long the Vulcans and Romulans had been separated. They did hint that it went back to Sargon's time. It was TNG that established a less significant 2000 years.

Fair point. But even there, it seems an unscientific contrivance to imagine that Vulcans and Romulans could look identical, share a common ancestry, yet not be the same species.

Add to that the later decision to establish that Vulcans and Romulans only diverged less than 2,000 years before TOS, and I think it makes far more sense to retcon Chekov as scanning for Spock's half-Human biology and to establish that Vulcans and Romulans register as the same species on scanners.