That's why they call it the blues (Paths of Disharmony SPOILERS)

[Therin of Andor]

that the Federation and Vulcans may not be part of the same political unit in 2387.

Well, in related news, if you check out ST VI, all Vulcan and Romulan delegates are wearing yellow sashes. UFP member planets' representatives wear blue, Klingons wear red, and independent planet representatives wear green.

So why weren't the Vulcans wearing blue?

 

[BillJ]

that the Federation and Vulcans may not be part of the same political unit in 2387.

Well, in related news, if you check out ST VI, all Vulcan and Romulan delegates are wearing yellow sashes. UFP member planets' representatives wear blue, Klingons wear red, and independent planet representatives wear green.

So why weren't the Vulcans wearing blue?

Production mistake, like Valeris wearing the wrong rank pin.

If you dig a little deeper, Star Trek: Countdown shows Picard as Federation ambassador to Vulcan.

On a side note... it would've been far more interesting (IMO) for the Vulcan's to be the ones leaving the Federation.

 

[RonG]

On a side note... it would've been far more interesting (IMO) for the Vulcan's to be the ones leaving the Federation.

ah, but how much *more* interesting would it have been for Earth to leave?

I just finishd the novel - haven't read RBoE yet, but the "conclusion" to the Typhon Pact series left me with higher opinions on the "series" as a whole, but still somewhat disappointed.

I remember the anticipation for the TP books for more than a year - thinking it would be the "next Big Thing".
While it was mostly good, the series serves IMO two primary functions, none of which are connected to the TP itself:

1. advancing the individual series' arcs - which would have gone better IMO without the joint brand of the TP

2. a "soft relaunch" for DS9 - aside from Seize the Fire, all novels had DS9 connections and contributed to the upcoming?) re-arrangement of the narrative.

The series also reminded me of the early Trek novels, where the Klingons and ROmulans were used as "the enemy". There was no need to brand the novels Star Trek: Romulan Empire etc.
Why use the brand of the TP if they are part of the new, ongoing, status quo?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Sci
In 'Losing the peace' and ZSG it is directly established that the federation is internally unstable.

Sort-of. You're overstating it. Losing the Peace established that the refugee crisis was threatening to create instability, but they solved both the refugee crisis and the Alpha Centauri secession threat in that same novel. The only hint of internal instability in ZSG is a little bit of foreshadowing to PoD.

Not quite, Sci.

In 'Losing the peace', member worlds were thinking about seceding. A vote was organised and most voted to remain.

BUT, as per ZSG - which takes place AFTER "Losing the peace' -, this was not the end of political instability in he federation. Not even close:
In the book, there is a scene between Bracco and the kingon ambassador. The ambassador says ~'We're having as much trouble keeping ourselves together as you have, madame president. Perhaps more, because we conquered most of our subjects'.
AKA the federation is politically highly unstable during ZSG, as well.

If Canada would be unstable enough that its lands were seriously contempleting secession, to the point that Quebec would secede,

Quebec has been seriously contemplating secession for decades, to the point of there being several referendums on Quebec's continued membership in Canada.

Has Quebec seceded? Are the other canadian territories thinking of seceding?
Canada is a model of political stability by comparison to present federation.

No. I think that a Federation composed of Earth and over one hundred other worlds counts as a Federation still intact. Remember, the Federation had just added its 155th Member right before the Borg Invasion. Even if we assume that the Borg destroyed 30 Members, that still leaves 120 Members -- 119 after Andor's secession.

Which could easily turn into 10 members in the very near future, if the current trend in the federation holds.
And stopping this trend requires actually fulfilling some - how did you called them? - 'impossible' orders/assignments/etc.

Don't count Vulcan as 'in' in the long run just yet, Truth:

In Titan;'Taking wing', is is directly stated that only a small majority was against vulcan-romulan unification - meaning a large minority was all for it.

You're overstating your case. That a plurality opposes something does not mean a large minority is for it. It's entirely possible for the remainder of people to be divided between people who are for something and people who are apathetic or undecided.

As it happens, 'Taking wing' specifically said not only that a small majority is against it, but also that a large minority is FOR the reunification.
It also mentioned that this 'large minority' could very well become a 'majority'.

'And that was when all was right in the federation, BEFORE Vulcan was half vaporised because two Earth-born human starfleet captains (Picard and Janeway) annoyed the borg enough that it came to sterilise the entire alpha/beta quadrants.'

In 'RBoE', Spock's unification movement receives a major boost - now it's able to expand in the open.
Also in RBoE, Spock directly says that one of the ways he envisions vulcan-romulan reunification is the vulcans leaving the federation and uniting with the romulans- and he has no problem with such an outcome.

You are, again, over-stating your case. You are, after all, talking about the eminently logical Mister Spock, who can speak in perfect serenity about his own imminent death when discussing a given situation's potential outcomes. Spock, being the frank person that he is, simply answers the question of how Vulcan and Romulus might reunite by listing a number of possible scenarios. That he includes a one scenario -- that one of the ways in which Vulcan might reunite with Romulus is through secession from the Federation -- in such a way indicates anything about what he actually advocates about the future of Vulcan's status within the Federation.

There was nothing theoretical about Spock's words in RBoE.

Spock put his actions behind his words. For decades, all he's done is be on Romulus, tirelessly trying to advance the reunification cause, instead of advancing federation interests elsewhere.
All this BEFORE the borg turned half of Vulcan into a radioactive desert.

In RBoE, Spock specifically said the vulcan-romulan reunification he worked so hard for was quite likely to be achieved by vulcan seceding from the federation - that's what he worked so hard for.

And this is Spock, who has a high opinion of humans.
Many vulcans think a lot less of emotional species. Examples - T'Pel, DS9:'Take me out to the holosuite' vulcans, etc.


My case is more than supported by the available evidence, Sci.

 

[RonG]

I have to say, ProtoAvatar, that I think you're taking the current situation in the UFP far too much to the extreme, and in a way, a bit simplistic.

1. Political instability does not automatically mean the end of the UFP. It is what it is - a politically sensitive issue regarding a founding member, brought upon by various circumstances and taken advantage upon by a political rival. while it is serious, and certainly doesn't help the current climate in the federation, it is mostly a media/PR/morale blow, at least IMO.

2. I'm not so sure that the general public in the UFP is even aware of Picard and Janeway's involvement with the Borg, other than (maybe) rumors and urban legend-type stories. While they are (in Janeway's case, were) celebrated Starfleet officers and main characters for Trek readers, I'm not so sure that they are even known to the UFP public at large (aside from those in the military and diplomatic circles, perhaps). So, your claim that other worlds would take offense at specific Earth humans involved with the Borg is, again, far fetched IMO

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

About Picard and Janeway:
The general public is not aware of Picard&Janeway's 'adventures'?
This would only be plausible if the federation was a totalitarian state - with censorship, etc.
In trek lit, it's even established that the federation population knew about these confrontations with the borg (beyond the borg attacks on Earth) - in Voy relaunch, for example.

And the fact that you had to recourse to such an ad-hoc/unsupported argument as ~'the public doesn't know of Picard/Janeway's deeds' only evidences how damaging their actions are proving to be to the federation's current stability.


About the federation's political instability:
Andor leaving is only the tip of the iceberg, it's built on the underlying political instability repeatedly referenced in recent books.
Political instablility brought about by the trauma of a tenth of the federation being vaporised and the rest being as good as defeated/dead - utterly helpless. Surviving only because god-like aliens took pity on humans&co and delivered them from the borg.
Borg who were poked with a stick by 'exploratory-minded humans' a little too often.

You are of the opinion that I'm taking "the current situation in the UFP far too much to the extreme"?
You should address this to the recent books - they painted the recent image of the federation like this; I already pointed to some (not all) of the relevant passages.


The federation won't fall - but that's only due to metatextual reasons - CBS won't allow the trek lit line to go that way, etc.

And the only way the federation will be saved is by generous use of deus ex machinas; for example:
-suddenly, all federates will be plot-brainwashed into being happy, uncomplaining members of the federation;
-suddenly, the cardassians/ferengi/etc will have a case of temporary insanity and choose to ally themselves with the federation - the losing side in a cold war; even worse, a losing side that, quite likely, will disappear as a significant political entity shortly;
-etc.

 

[RonG]

RonG

About Picard and Janeway:
The general public is not aware of Picard&Janeway's 'adventures'?
This would only be plausible if the federation was a totalitarian state - with censorship, etc.
In trek lit, it's even established that the federation population knew about these confrontations with the borg (beyond the borg attacks on Earth) - in Voy relaunch, for example.

And the fact that you had to recourse to such an ad-hoc/unsupported argument as ~'the public doesn't know of Picard/Janeway's deeds' only evidences how damaging their actions are proving to be to the federation's current stability.


About the federation's political instability:
Andor leaving is only the tip of the iceberg, it's built on the underlying political instability repeatedly referenced in recent books.
Political instablility brought about by the trauma of a tenth of the federation being vaporised and the rest being as good as defeated/dead - utterly helpless. Surviving only because god-like aliens took pity on humans&co and delivered them from the borg.
Borg who were poked with a stick by 'exploratory-minded humans' a little too often.

You are of the opinion that I'm taking "the current situation in the UFP far too much to the extreme"?
You should address this to the recent books - they painted the recent image of the federation like this; I already pointed to some (not all) of the relevant passages.


The federation won't fall - but that's only due to metatextual reasons - CBS won't allow the trek lit line to go that way, etc.

And the only way the federation will be saved is by generous use of deus ex machinas; for example:
-suddenly, all federates will be plot-brainwashed into being happy, uncomplaining members of the federation;
-suddenly, the cardassians/ferengi/etc will have a case of temporary insanity and choose to ally themselves with the federation - the losing side in a cold war; even worse, a losing side that, quite likely, will disappear as a significant political entity shortly;
-etc.

I don’t think you're objectively describing the UFP situation in TrekLit, so much as commenting on it and subjectively interpreting it as per your own view on the past, present and future of the Trek franchise.

Again, while Picard and Janeway are known and celebrated, I'm not sure that they are personally connected with the Borg, as far as public perception is concerned.
Remember, that the Borg attacked Sector 001 two times (BoBW and FC), and were thwarted. That alone could be plausibly linked to their invasion in Destiny.

I don’t think that there's blame resting on "some human explorers'" shoulders, as far as the public perception goes, and if something like this should turn up in the novles, it would seem to me very strange and contrived.

As for the fact that the UFP was helpless when faced with the full might of the Collective in Destiny. To this I say: So. What?

The Borg are (were) a force of nature. There was no way that any power in Known Space, including without a doubt the Typhon Pact members, could withstand against them. One of the main points of the Destiny trilogy was dealing with the inevitable defeat and death… Attributing the UFP's (so-called) instability to its ability to withstand the Borg is quite simplistic.

Why not point a finger to the UFP because of its (or rather Picard's) inability to control Q? Sisko's inability to prevent the Dominion War? The inability to go beyond the Galactic Barrier?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

About Picard/Janeway:
I already told you - your argument that Picard/Janeway's actions are unknown to the general public is completely unsupported. Your interpretation is as subjective as it gets.

Indeed, your argument - as I already mentioned - is actually contradicted by the Voy relaunch books (and, most likely, by other books, too).

Also - as I already told you - 'the fact that you had to recourse to such an ad-hoc/unsupported argument as ~'the public doesn't know of Picard/Janeway's deeds' only evidences how damaging their actions are proving to be to the federation's current stability.'

And - we're talking trek lit, RonG. The borg attacked Earth at least 4 TIMES - BOBW, FC, Voy ending, Before dishonor. Attacks no 3 and 4 were directly provocked by Picard/Janeway's actions. As was 'Destiny'.


About the borg:
The borg attacked en masse, so soon, intending to exterminate, only because they were annoyed by humans a little too often.
The same humans who like to poke at everything that lies in the darkness.

The humans were lucky with their 'exploration' until recently - lucky that a god-like being they encountered didn't get annoyed enough to just make the federation dissappear before.
Their luck ran out with the borg - and 65 BILLION had to pay the price for the human 'exploration spirit' in blood - and adjusted for inflation.


The federation thought it can handle anything - a belief instilled in it by 'exploratory-minded' humans.
Now, that it's been bitch-slapped by the borg - with ease -, it knows better. A knowledge bought with a LOT of blood.
Blood that would not have been spilled without the humans recklessly provocking the borg.


And let's be clear - the borg, "a force of nature", is impotent by comparison with some other powers - some already shown, some still waiting to be found, beyond.
By comparison to them, the federation is a joke - it just realised it's a mere child, who only thought it was an adult, ready to play at the adult's table.
And that's the trauma the federation suffered, while it was helpless, waiting to die.

RonG, what traumas did USA suffer from Pearl Harbour or 9/11?
These are NOTHING by comparison to the trauma the federation suffered at the hands of the borg.

 

[RonG]

RonG

About Picard/Janeway:
I already told you - your argument that Picard/Janeway's actions are unknown to the general public is completely unsupported. Your interpretation is as subjective as it gets.

Indeed, your argument - as I already mentioned - is actually contradicted by the Voy relaunch books (and, most likely, by other books, too).

Also - as I already told you - 'the fact that you had to recourse to such an ad-hoc/unsupported argument as ~'the public doesn't know of Picard/Janeway's deeds' only evidences how damaging their actions are proving to be to the federation's current stability.'


About the borg:
The borg attacked en masse, so soon, intending to exterminate, only because they were annoyed by humans a little too often.
The same humans who like to poke at everything that lies in the darkness.

The humans were lucky with their 'exploration' until recently - lucky that a god-like being they encountered didn't get annoyed enough to just make the federation dissappear before.
Their luck ran out with the borg - and 65 BILLION had to pay the price for the human 'exploration spirit' in blood - and adjusted for inflation.


The federation thought it can handle anything - a belief instilled in it by 'exploratory-minded' humans.
Now, that it's been bitch-slapped by the borg - with ease -, it knows better. A knowledge bought with a LOT of blood.
Blood that would not have been spilled without the humans recklessly provocking the borg.


And let's be clear - the borg, "a force of nature", is impotent by comparison with some other powers - some already shown, some still waiting to be found, beyond.
By comparison to them, the federation is a joke - it just realised it's a mere child, who only thought it was an adult, ready to play at the adult's table.
And that's the trauma the federation suffered, while it was helpless, waiting to die.

RonG, what traumas did USA suffer from Pearl Harbour or 9/11?
These are NOTHING by comparison to the trauma the federation suffered at the hands of the borg.

With all due respect, you've added nothing to the discussion, and just repeated your mantra a few more times with bold font CAPITAL letters used for dramatic effect.

None of that changes the fact that your argument is subjective and narrow.

Let's try this again from the top:

1. Picard and Janeway are central characters for the readers – not for the UFP at large.

2. While they *may* have some kind of "celebrity status" and stand apart from other captains / soldiers / explorers etc., they are simply officers in a very large organization, protecting hundreds of billions of sentient beings

3. While their actions sometimes are shown to be known to a wider public, such as Janeway's successful return home with her crew, by and large IMO (in *my* opinion), the average UFP citizen wouldn’t know them or of them.

If you think otherwise, just try and compare this to today's western world. Would a US citizen be aware of every colonel's actions, heroic though they may be?

4. As far as the general public knows, it seems to me that it couldn’t know about Picard's personal involvement with the Borg (for example) - *how* would the public know that? *why* would the UFP and Starfleet let it be public knowledge?

Also, while the UFP was struck hard, why do you think it now knows it's "just a child"? Does it sound plausible to you that the UFP would now cower in its borders, appearing to be weak because the Borg invaded??

I'm not even sure that the public knows about the Caeliar! For all we know, the UFP, the interstellar power that basically withstood internal strife within the AQ and BQ since the 22nd century, spearheaded the front against the Dominion and defeated the Borg – both within 5-6 years, is a force to be reckoned with – enough to get some of its adversaries to unite in order to compete with it – hence, the Typhon Pact…

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

About the borg - I already answered to all you posted here in my previous post. DO READ IT.


About the federation - Also already answered. DO READ MY POSTS, RonG.
The federation now knows how LOW it is in the hierarchy of civilizations, of galactic powers.
It can handle fights with other kids from around - like klingons, romulans, dominion.
Teenagers - like the borg - can crush it like a bug.
As for grown-ups - Q, caeliar, - the difference in power is so great it's amusing.

And the Typhon Pact - another up-start kid - the federation is on the losing side of a cold war even against this kid.

The federation went from 'Q, who', and Riker's self-assured speech ~'we don't know what's out there, but we know that we're ready to meet it' to realising just how utterly impotent it is against some of the things that are 'out there'.
'RonG, what traumas did USA suffer from Pearl Harbour or 9/11?
These are NOTHING by comparison to the trauma the federation suffered at the hands of the borg.'

PS - I see you continue with your completely unsupported assumptions that ~'this is secret', 'that is secret'.
All you do with this argument is acknowledge how deep the federation's trauma is - the only way out you see is 'it doesn't actually know about this/that'.
Highly unconvincing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As far as the general public knows, it seems to me that it couldn’t know about Picard's personal involvement with the Borg (for example) - *how* would the public know that? *why* would the UFP and Starfleet let it be public knowledge?

The survivors of Wolf 359 would surely remember being hailed by Locutus, as we saw in the DS9 pilot. Sisko remembers that Picard was part of the Borg - and I highly doubt he's the only one. And need I remind you how Sisko treated Picard when they first met *after* that? Sisko was about ready to chop Picard's head off. Don't know about now, though.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And the only way the federation will be saved is by generous use of deus ex machinas; for example:
-suddenly, all federates will be plot-brainwashed into being happy, uncomplaining members of the federation;
-suddenly, the cardassians/ferengi/etc will have a case of temporary insanity and choose to ally themselves with the federation - the losing side in a cold war; even worse, a losing side that, quite likely, will disappear as a significant political entity shortly;
-etc.

Suddenly, the minority of dissatisfied readers move on to another franchise, or original SF, and leave the rest of us to enjoy what the authors are bringing us.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

And the only way the federation will be saved is by generous use of deus ex machinas; for example:
-suddenly, all federates will be plot-brainwashed into being happy, uncomplaining members of the federation;
-suddenly, the cardassians/ferengi/etc will have a case of temporary insanity and choose to ally themselves with the federation - the losing side in a cold war; even worse, a losing side that, quite likely, will disappear as a significant political entity shortly;
-etc.

Suddenly, the minority of dissatisfied readers move on to another franchise, or original SF, and leave the rest of us to enjoy what the authors are bringing us.

You do realise that, in your post, you, for all intents and purposes, admit/confirm the fact you have no viable counterargument, yes?

 

[RonG]

RonG

About the borg - I already answered to all you posted here in my previous post. DO READ IT.


About the federation - Also already answered. DO READ MY POSTS, RonG.
The federation now knows how LOW it is in the hierarchy of civilizations, of galactic powers.
It can handle fights with other kids from around - like klingons, romulans, dominion.
Teenagers - like the borg - can crush it like a bug.
As for grown-ups - Q, caeliar, - the difference in power is so great it's amusing.

And the Typhon Pact - another up-start kid - the federation is on the losing side of a cold war even against this kid.

The federation went from 'Q, who', and Riker's self-assured speech ~'we don't know what's out there, but we know that we're ready to meet it' to realising just how utterly impotent it is against some of the things that are 'out there'.
'RonG, what traumas did USA suffer from Pearl Harbour or 9/11?
These are NOTHING by comparison to the trauma the federation suffered at the hands of the borg.'

PS - I see you continue with your completely unsupported assumptions that ~'this is secret', 'that is secret'.
All you do with this argument is acknowledge how deep the federation's trauma is - the only way out you see is 'it doesn't actually know about this/that'.
Highly unconvincing.

I'm sorry if I've led you to think that I haven't read your posts. I have - quite thoroughly, in fact. It's just that your main point is basically - the Federation is weak, is about to collapse, and many will blame it for the Borg invasion because of humans like Picard and Janeway.

I happen to strongly disagree with you on all 3 points (well, the Federation is *weakened* but not *weak*, so 2.5 points ), and I find no wide proof of your arguments, specifically regarding Picard and Janeway. You seem to think that because the *readers* know something, the entire UFP is privy to any and all information.

And about Wolf 359 - of course the survivors would know Picard (some of them at least, as he was on the viewscreen as Locutus). Same for every military / exploration / classified operation / event - *some* people know, *most* (i.e. the general public,which in the UFP, is a LARGE number..) would not.

I'm trying to look at the bigger picture - you are dragging the argument back to the minutae

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

You say you read my posts.
Well, then you should know just how unsupported and 'bury your head in the sand' your 'all is secret' argument is.
You're essentially saying: I don't like what trek lit/canon/etc established, so I'll just pretend it's not there, it has no effect on anything - and then, it'll dissappear. Because I say so.

You can, of course, continue having this stance. But, again, it is highly unconvincing.

PS - About the federation being weak - this is an objective fact, not subject to discussion anymore.
Considering how easily the borg curbstomped the federation in 'Destiny' while barely trying (for the borg, 7000 cubes is a VERY SMALL expeditionary force) the federation is severely outclassed by a LOT of powers throughout the galaxy.
Not all of which are evolved energy beings, either.
For example - in Voy:'Hope and fear', Arturis's people managed to resist the full force of the borg for centuries. The federation proved unable to mount even a fraction of this level of resistance.

 

[RonG]

RonG

You say you read my posts.
Well, then you should know just how unsupported and 'bury your head in the sand' your 'all is secret' argument is.
You're essentially saying: I don't like what trek lit/canon/etc established, so I'll just pretend it's not there, it has no effect on anything - and then, it'll dissappear. Because I say so.

You can, of course, continue having this stance. But, again, it is highly unconvincing.

In that case, I invite you to prove to me otherwise:

If your arguments are objective and based on established fact (yes, novels and comics do count IMO),

1. please show me what makes you think the UFP is about to fall (don't use real world answer like "CBS won't let it fall" - show me what makeds you draw that conclusion other than personal opinion

2. ditto for the Borg invasion "blamed" on specific *individuals*


I await your impeccable counter argument..

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

RonG, you make the claim, you have to prove it - the burden of proof is on your sholders, NOT MINE.
And you utterly failed to prove your 'bury your head in the sand' 'all is secret' speculation.


I, on the other hand, proved my arguments by using information established in trek lit and canon.
Apropos trek lit, in the Voy:Homecoming books, it is established that the population was well informed about Janeway's borg adventures.


'PS - About the federation being weak - this is an objective fact, not subject to discussion anymore.
Considering how easily the borg curbstomped the federation in 'Destiny' while barely trying (for the borg, 7000 cubes is a VERY SMALL expeditionary force) the federation is severely outclassed by a LOT of powers throughout the galaxy.
Not all of which are evolved energy beings, either.
For example - in Voy:'Hope and fear', Arturis's people managed to resist the full force of the nearby borg for centuries. The federation proved unable to mount even a fraction of this level of resistance.'

 

[RonG]

RonG

RonG, you make the claim, you have to prove it - the burden of proof is on your sholders, NOT MINE.
And you utterly failed to prove your 'bury your head in the sand' 'all is secret' speculation.


I, on the other hand, proved my arguments by using information established in trek lit and canon.
Apropos trek lit, in the Voy:Homecoming books, it is established that the population was well informed about Janeway's borg adventures.


'PS - About the federation being weak - this is an objective fact, not subject to discussion anymore.
Considering how easily the borg curbstomped the federation in 'Destiny' while barely trying (for the borg, 7000 cubes is a VERY SMALL expeditionary force) the federation is severely outclassed by a LOT of powers throughout the galaxy.
Not all of which are evolved energy beings, either.
For example - in Voy:'Hope and fear', Arturis's people managed to resist the full force of the nearby borg for centuries. The federation proved unable to mount even a fraction of this level of resistance.'

um... I may have been mistaken, but in a debate, one raises an argument, provides proof and draws a conclusion..

I have stated again and again that my arguments are opinions (hint: that's what the IMO means..), and not fact, as we have no facts on this matter.

Yes, Janeway is a "celebrity", at least in starfleet (and among friends, relatives and colleagues of starfleet officers). hat was never in question. How you jump from that to presuming Janeway (and by extension the UFP at large) would be blamed for "bugging the Borg" is beyond me... please, if you can explain, I'm all ears

Second - Yes - the UFP doesn't know what's out there.. get this - *nobody* does... just because there are bigger and badder powers out there, doesn't make the UFP is any less than it had been before (barring of course damage inflicted in actual conflicts like the Dominion War and the Borg Invasion).

All you're doing is providing your opinion as the backing of your other opinions..

P.S.
I don't recall that the 7000 cubes were a small percentage of the Collective's "fleet" - where was this stated?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

RonG

As to 'how can Janeway/Picard be blamed for provocking the borg?' - already answered.
About proof for my statements and lack of proof for yours - already addressed.

PS
"I don't recall that the 7000 cubes were a small percentage of the Collective's "fleet" - where was this stated?"
In Voy:Scorpion, we got a rough estimate for all the borg forces - tens of thousands of worlds; MILLIONS OF CUBES. MILLIONS!
7000 cubes IS A VERY SMALL expeditionary force by comparison to such numbers.

The borg were barely trying and still they utterly broke the federation in days.
The same borg needed centuries to conquer some species from the delta quadrant and elsewhere. There were even species that came very close to destroying the borg - 8472.
Notice the difference?

 

[RonG]

RonG

As to 'how can Janeway/Picard be blamed for provocking the borg?' - already answered.
About proof for my statements and lack of proof for yours - already addressed.

PS
"I don't recall that the 7000 cubes were a small percentage of the Collective's "fleet" - where was this stated?"
In Voy:Scorpion, we got a rough estimate for all the borg forces - tens of thousands of worlds; MILLIONS OF CUBES. MILLIONS!
7000 cubes IS A VERY SMALL expeditionary force by comparison to such numbers.

The borg were barely trying and still they utterly broke the federation in days.
The same borg needed centuries to conquer some species from the delta quadrant and elsewhere. There were even species that came very close to destroying the borg - 8472.
Notice the difference?

As for the Borg, I have no other knowledge regarding their fleet size, so if you have a source - far be it for me to argue. Still, the fact that the Borg have millions, billions or whatever cubes and that there are other, more powerful enemies / entities out there doesn't mean anything other than that - certainly not that the UFP is "a child" or some nonsense like that..


As for proof on some comments - this back and forth is getting tiresome, as we have a difference of opinion, which cannot be settled by providing more opinions.. you have not proved anything, as there isn;t anything to prove - it's subjective...