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That's why they call it the blues (Paths of Disharmony SPOILERS)

So I'm gonna be all nitpicky for a second.

I know, I know, shocking.

On the bottom of page 55, T'Ryssa Chen removes her gold tunic. Isn't she supposed to be wearing blue? I thought she was science, even if she spends time in engineering lately.
 
So - in 'Destiny', Picard utterly fails to be competent in the fight against the borg. Afterwards, he's running around like a happy puppy because the caeliar messed with his mind and gave him a 'happy' memory.
And now, he fails again in his diplomatic mission to Andor - and fails disastrously, that is.

Trek lit has been BRUTAL with Picard's character lately.

As for the andorians mitigating the typhon pact's aggressive tendencies - they're, BY FAR, weaker and less influential than even the weakest member of the typhon pact (they were only one of 150 species in the federation; the typhon pact is composed of 6 species - and the power of the two organisations is ~equal). All (or almost all) members of the pact are aggressive to the federation.
Andorians having any mitigating influence (or any influnce at all) on the pact is wishful thinkinng.

Yep, they did it. :( Andor slipped through, sadly. Of course, it's the events of this novel that push their new government out. I suppose after Alpha Centauri stayed, Zalda stayed, Bolarus stayed, and they and a whole bunch of other member worlds reaffirmed the Declarations as a show of support, this is the "one step back" to that "two steps forward".

Deranged Nasat, the member worlds deciding to remain in the federation is NOT 'two steps forward'. It is staying in the same place the federation already was.

And Andor leaving is a GIANT step back for the federation's strength, image and stability.
 
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So - in 'Destiny', Picard utterly fails to be competent in the fight against the borg. Afterwards, he's running around like a happy puppy because the caeliar messed with his mind and gave him a 'happy' memory.
And now, he fails again in his diplomatic mission to Andor - and fails disastrously, that is.

Trek lit has been BRUTAL with Picard's character lately.

What, is the man supposed to be able to mind-control the Parliament Andoria or something? It's not a failure because someone else refused to listen to you.
 
Sci
Picard was on a diplomatic mission to keep Andor in the federation - at the very least. He UTTERLY failed in achieving this.
'Trying' means nothing if accompanied by such a thorough failure.

No amount of excuses you will come up with will change either this disaster or his earlier displayed incompetence.

As I said: Trek lit has been BRUTAL with Picard's character lately.
 
Sci
Picard was on a diplomatic mission to keep Andor in the federation - at the very least. He UTTERLY failed in achieving this.

I think there's a difference between a mission failing and a person failing.

One man, no matter how persuasive, cannot control an entire political movement. One man, no matter how persuasive, cannot control over people's choices.

'Trying' means nothing if accompanied by such a thorough failure.

No amount of excuses you will come up with will change either this disaster or his earlier displayed incompetence.

Remind me to never, ever apply for a job where you're my boss. You'd be brutal to work for if an assignment ended up not working out properly.

(Also, you're overlooking the part where Picard single-handedly convinced the Governor of Alpha Centauri not to try to get his world to secede from the Federation and forced the Pacifican and Federation governments to improve their handling of the post-Invasion refugee crisis, thereby saving untold numbers of lives.)
 
Yep, they did it. :( Andor slipped through, sadly. Of course, it's the events of this novel that push their new government out. I suppose after Alpha Centauri stayed, Zalda stayed, Bolarus stayed, and they and a whole bunch of other member worlds reaffirmed the Declarations as a show of support, this is the "one step back" to that "two steps forward".

Deranged Nasat, the member worlds deciding to remain in the federation is NOT 'two steps forward'. It is staying in the same place the federation already was.

I'd say it is "two steps forward", because the Federation is not in the same place it was. Really, it never is. Things are always in motion; the path to whatever hypothetical "better galaxy" the Federation and its supporters work for is constantly being altered by the events that take place, which they have to adapt to. Some of those events are beyond their control - like massive Borg invasions or the trauma of approaching extinction due to population failures. The road to successful IDIC needs to be remapped each time - the Borg Invasion and the general crisis had every world in known space in a very perlious position; nerves are frayed, people are being shrill and snappish, there's lots of resentment and finger-pointing and general despair. In those circumstances, it could all too easily have fallen apart entirely. The fact that so many members are reafirrming the Articles of Federation is - to me at least - "two steps forward", back to mapping out that road. Andor's decision is the one step back.

And Andor leaving is a GIANT step back for the federation's strength, image and stability.

Quite probably, yes. But who says a lot of worlds won't listen to the UFPs side of things here - which is that the Tholians manipulated a troubled planet in a bid to increase their own influence and inflict damage on a rival. The Tholians aren't exactly trusted by most of the galaxy, new alliances aside. I bet there'll be lots of muttering across the galaxy over what happened with Andor...

I mean, Ambassador Nreskene came close to overplaying the "we Tholians are now more cooperative and reaching out to our neighbours" angle; I'm surprised he didn't conclude with "and now I must leave; the Assembly wants me to distribute toys to orphans and save puppies from fires". :lol:
 
Sci
Picard was on a diplomatic mission to keep Andor in the federation - at the very least. He UTTERLY failed in achieving this.

I think there's a difference between a mission failing and a person failing.

One man, no matter how persuasive, cannot control an entire political movement. One man, no matter how persuasive, cannot control over people's choices.


I agree with Sci. And, anyway, Andor is a democracy; having that "one man" influencing the government's decisions on a level you suggest, ProtoAvatar, would be totally at odds with that tradition and so with Federation policy, would it not? If Picard has that much influence, it would be a point in favour of what the anti-Federation groups are claiming; that the Federation is an affront to Andorian sovereignty. With a world as volatile as Andor currently is, and with that rising anti-UFP streak, is it at all wise for him to even attempt to push too hard? Maybe his approach was less intense than it was in some earlier cases, not because he wasn't trying as hard with his task but because he's acutely aware of what he's up against - a large segment of the populace who resent Federation intrusion into internal andorian affairs (no matter how irrational most of those resentments are).

Picard didn't "fail"; he simply didn't carry enough weight in the end. If the Parliament Andoria wants the Federation out, it's out. He can disapprove, argue his case, but that's it.
 
Sci
Picard was on a diplomatic mission to keep Andor in the federation - at the very least. He UTTERLY failed in achieving this.

I think there's a difference between a mission failing and a person failing.

One man, no matter how persuasive, cannot control an entire political movement. One man, no matter how persuasive, cannot control over people's choices.


I agree with Sci. And, anyway, Andor is a democracy; having that "one man" influencing the government's decisions on a level you suggest, ProtoAvatar, would be totally at odds with that tradition and so with Federation policy, would it not? If Picard has that much influence, it would be a point in favour of what the anti-Federation groups are claiming; that the Federation is an affront to Andorian sovereignty. With a world as volatile as Andor currently is, and with that rising anti-UFP streak, is it at all wise for him to even attempt to push too hard? Maybe his approach was less intense than it was in some earlier cases, not because he wasn't trying as hard with his task but because he's acutely aware of what he's up against - a large segment of the populace who resent Federation intrusion into internal andorian affairs (no matter how irrational most of those resentments are).

Picard didn't "fail"; he simply didn't carry enough weight in the end. If the Parliament Andoria wants the Federation out, it's out. He can disapprove, argue his case, but that's it.

What was sad to me, was that Picard and the Enterprise crew never really stood a chance to turn the situation around. The events that pushed Andor to secede were already put into motion long before they got involved.

But now my general thoughts about the book:

  • I really liked that the Enterprise crew actually quite happy and non-mopey, unlike Bashir, Riker and Sisko in the previous books. Especially Picards interactions with his son were awesome and heartwarming.
  • There was a lot of coupling going on in general on the ship. And Geordi finally got some! :) (and a possible girlfriend) I half expected her to die in some attack on the planet, but I am glad that didn't happen. I am also intrigued by the Trys/Taurik pairing.
  • I also liked the little bits of continuity thrown in, e.g. I'm sure that at least some of the security guards mentioned by name were also part of the Hirogen/Borg Cube attacks in Destiny. Or the flute.
  • As I said above it was a little sad that the secession really seemed like an inevitability to me. They maybe could have turned things around before the Tholians dropped their bombshell but after that it was over.
  • Which brings me to something I didn't quite get about the Visionists/radical Andorians. What exactly has the Federation done or not done to create this amount of disillusionment in so many people (at the beginning of the book).
    • Is it because Federation scientists were unable to find a solution to the reproduction issue?
    • Or because they felt that they didn't defend Andor adequately during the Borg invasion?
  • And what does leaving the Federation actually get them? I don't remember ever reading anything about what member worlds actually had to give to the Federation. Do they have to pay taxes or some other kind of tithe? Does the Federation even have taxes? Do they have to provide recruits for Starfleet? I just don't see the downside to staying in the Federation.
I am sure I forgot a lot of stuff I wanted to say that I will remember later, but to sum it up, I have to say that I really enjoyed this book, more so than the earlier three books of the series.

ETA: I voted above average in the other thread and would give the book an 8.5/10.
 
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Deranged Nasat, Sci

"Remind me to never, ever apply for a job where you're my boss. You'd be brutal to work for if an assignment ended up not working out properly."
An assignment? You call the missions he failed lately 'assignments'?
If Picard worked for a company, he would be fired the next second after ANY failure of such magnitude. And the company itself would most likely face bankrupcy thanks to Picard.
I already said - saying you 'tried' means nothing when all you can show for yourself are such failures.


"I'd say it is "two steps forward", because the Federation is not in the same place it was."
You mean the federation is so unstable that member worlds affirming they are still 'in' actually counts as 'two steps forward'? Any political body so unstable will, realistically, fall apart VERY SOON.

"But who says a lot of worlds won't listen to the UFPs side of things here"
It's possible. It's also possible I'll win the loto today.
Nasat, the first thing going through the mind of anyone dealing with the federation now is:
"Will the federation still be here next year, in order to honor the obligations it assumes now?
The borg effectively crushed the federation.
Lately, there's been internal strife in the federation, and it barely held together.
Now member worlds are leaving. The andorians - a FOUNDING MEMBER - had no problem leaving.
If Spock manages to do the same with the vulcans (and the end of 'Rough beasts of empire' shows Spock would have no problem with such an outcome, as long as the vulcans and romulans are reunited), bye bye the federation.
Maybe we should be dealing with someone who won't fall apart by next week."

Right now, Ambassador Nreskene and his 'overplaying' are more credible than the federation and its claims it won't fall by next year.
 
Ugh. I shouldn't have read that. DUMB!

Anyway, I haven't read it yet, and I'm sure it will be a good novel, I hope this makes some kind of sense and Andor is not simply lashing out at a Federation that "failed them." I stopped reading the spoilers, but if the Andorians who decided this think the Typhon Pact, with its wonderfully xenophobic membership, is going to help them...
 
It makes some sort of sense (it doesn't come completely out of the left field) but especially the early (in the book) anti-Federation feelings seem a bit underexplained, as I touch upon in my earlier post.

I just remembered one thing I didn't particularly like were the comparisons of the troubles on Andor with the Media whipping the populace into a froth to 'early 21th earth', as a thinly veiled stab at Fox News and their ilk. While I personally despise Fox News and what they do and stand for, it just kind of pulled me out of the story.
 
^ You see it as a stab at a particular source? I just read it as a commentary on the way the 21st century media in general works. Manufacturing outrage and controversy (usually over nothing) are pretty much what most media sources do (well, in my country, anyway, maybe elsewhere they're better about that...)
 
^ You see it as a stab at a particular source? I just read it as a commentary on the way the 21st century media in general works. Manufacturing outrage and controversy (usually over nothing) are pretty much what most media sources do (well, in my country, anyway, maybe elsewhere they're better about that...)
That is true, I don't think media is that different over here. Maybe I made the connection because of the recent Gifford shooting and incitement by media thing you guys have going on over there. Or it could be simply me interpreting a general commentary about our time in an USA-centric way, since most reference in the books understandably are (as they are mainly written by Americans). And I simply mentioned Fox News because from this outsiders perspective they seem to be the best (worst) in the 'outright lies' department.

But I don't want to drag this thread into a political bickering match, those never end well ;)
 
^ You see it as a stab at a particular source? I just read it as a commentary on the way the 21st century media in general works.

I agree with this. The media have to sell their wares like any other, and the sad truth is that hypes sell. Most readers outside the US will likely just link this to a local example. I live in a small town in the Netherlands where last year we had some minor rioting between two groups of people. It was confined to one street, but the way the national media reported it, you'd have thought the entire town was on fire.

After the Borg invasion, I think it's logical to assume that people are scared. The Andorians like all the other members of the Federation have looked to the Federation government for protection. The general resentment of the UFP's percieved lack of interest in the Andorian genetics issue was already established back in Paradigm. Even without having read Paths yet, I can understand that these two "failures" combined could cause serious upheaval in any society. Secession might not be the best solution, but I can understand that the question might be raised whether the benefits of membership still outweigh the disadvantages...
 
^ You see it as a stab at a particular source? I just read it as a commentary on the way the 21st century media in general works.
After the Borg invasion, I think it's logical to assume that people are scared. The Andorians like all the other members of the Federation have looked to the Federation government for protection.
It is probably doesn't help that Earth got through the invasion pretty much intact. The angry Andorians must think: 'Yeah Earth got saved, but Andor? Nobody cares about Andor'.

The general resentment of the UFP's percieved lack of interest in the Andorian genetics issue was already established back in Paradigm. Even without having read Paths yet, I can understand that these two "failures" combined could cause serious upheaval in any society. Secession might not be the best solution, but I can understand that the question might be raised whether the benefits of membership still outweigh the disadvantages...
But that is the thing I'm not so clear about. What are the actual disadvantages of Federation membership? Or what do they gain by seceding?
 
But that is the thing I'm not so clear about. What are the actual disadvantages of Federation membership? Or what do they gain by seceding?

Well, I assume there would be several. For one, I assume that as a member world Andorian local government would be subject to the policy being made in Paris. Take for example the Betazoid relief effort after the Dominion War. It's been shown that in order to divert Cardassian relief supplies to Betazed, Councillor Enaren had to sway a majority on the Federation Council to join his petition and ultimately failed in his goal (by his own choice, but still). Likewise, there would be plenty of decisions that adversely affected Andor.

Second, with Starfleet in shambles, the Andorians lack proper protection while gaining a major enemy in the Typhon Pact powers. The Typhon Pact's quarrel is with the Federation as a whole (its "imperialism" as noted in Rough Beasts), not individual worlds. Perhaps the Andorians would feel less likely to be a target on their own.
 
For the record, ProtoAvatar, you can use the quotes feature by typing in a left bracket, followed by the world quote, followed by an equal sign, followed by the name of the user you are quoting, followed by a right bracket. From there, you can enter their quote, and follow it up with a left bracket, followed by a right slash, followed by the world "quote," followed by a right bracket.

So the result would look like this, sans spaces:

"[ quote ]Quotation.[ /quote ]"

Sci said:
Remind me to never, ever apply for a job where you're my boss. You'd be brutal to work for if an assignment ended up not working out properly.

An assignment? You call the missions he failed lately 'assignments'?

Reading comprehension fail. I'm calling an instruction you would theoretically give me in this hypothetical scenario an "assignment," not Starfleet's orders.

If Picard worked for a company, he would be fired the next second after ANY failure of such magnitude.

And then the company would shortly go out of business after giving their employees impossible assignments and blaming them for the subsequent loss of revenue.

But that is the thing I'm not so clear about. What are the actual disadvantages of Federation membership? Or what do they gain by seceding?

Well, I assume there would be several. For one, I assume that as a member world Andorian local government would be subject to the policy being made in Paris. Take for example the Betazoid relief effort after the Dominion War. It's been shown that in order to divert Cardassian relief supplies to Betazed, Councillor Enaren had to sway a majority on the Federation Council to join his petition and ultimately failed in his goal (by his own choice, but still). Likewise, there would be plenty of decisions that adversely affected Andor.

Second, with Starfleet in shambles, the Andorians lack proper protection while gaining a major enemy in the Typhon Pact powers. The Typhon Pact's quarrel is with the Federation as a whole (its "imperialism" as noted in Rough Beasts), not individual worlds. Perhaps the Andorians would feel less likely to be a target on their own.

All that's a good point. Certainly Andor was targeted for extermination by the Borg primarily because of their Federation Membership.

We also know from "Journey to Babel" that Federation Member States are subject to Federation law regarding distribution of wealth. Sarek cited the re-distribution of wealth to benefit the majority of the populace on Coridan as a reason for them to join the UFP; presumably this applies to all Federation Member States.

We've also seen that Federation Member States are sometimes forced by law to give up some resources to help other worlds. Ardana was required to give up some magic McGuffin to a world suffering a plague in "The Cloud Minders," for instance, and the Governor of Alpha Centauri was angry that the Federation government was threatening to federalize Alpha Centauri's mining industry to help rebuild devastated Federation worlds.

And I can't imagine that they don't pay taxes. Yes, yes, I know, "we've evolved beyond money," blah blah blah. Yet the canon is full of contradictory evidence there, so I don't buy it. I'm sure that Andor pays taxes to the UFP -- and as one of the older Federation Member States, I wouldn't be surprised if Andor pays more in taxes than it gets back from the Federation in financial aid, much the same way the North Eastern states pay more into the U.S. federal government than they get back.

And then there's just the basic fact that being a Federation Member State means yielding your sovereignty to a larger super-state. Basic nationalism would obviously be offended by that.
 
How will Starfleet handle having a member of a potentially hostile power right in their back yard? What's to stop the TP from moving a large fleet into the system, to protect Andor's sovereignty of course? Will Andor end up like Cuba, allied with a hostile power but militarily weak?
 
Perhaps it's just as well that Shran and Archer aren't alive to see this. They gotta be spinning in their graves. All that they worked so hard to build, is now for nothing. :(
 
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