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Maybe - as I mentioned in my comments the twist at the end with who shows up on DS9 makes the Kira story a little more vital in terms of the overall storyline but that won't change the fact I didn't it find it that interesting and although not badly written it was very bland and there are many better books out there if you want to read about resistance movements and the like. With RBOE I thought the story was still interesting and well told despite what was done to Sisko so it isn't quite the same thing.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the Kira story. The ending was a real surprise, but that doesn't change the fact I was always slightly disappointed when the story jumped back to her during the rest of the book.
It wasn't badly written, I was just struggling to care what happened to these people I would never see again.
Nan Bacco's death was the opposite. I saw where it was all going from the start and yet I was still shocked by the moment when it came. I have only started reading the Star Trek novels in the last year or so, so I read a lot involving her in a short space of time. Made it sting all the more, having just grown so attached. Definitely a character I will miss.
I've always been a fan of books that follow a series rather than one off stories, cannot wait to see where this is all headed. I am still curious what "The Fall" refers to.
First, I should just note that I used the spoiler tag earlier in the thread because the book release was still rolling. I felt I wanted to give it a little time before diving into the big event in the novel, but the spoiler warning in the thread title should make things pretty clear.
Now, as to who may have done it:
It may be a red herring, but it seems like there's something off about Castellan Garan's aide who volunteered to remain at DS9 while she was pressed to return to Cardassia. Not just that, this aide ostensibly was to meet and walk with the alleged assassin to the ceremony. He told station security he couldn't find her, but what if he did and slipped her the digital mickey?
Disaffected Cardassian groups have been known to cooperate and collaborate with Typhon Pact powers, including the Tzenkethi. Given that and the Cardassian nationalist groups' platform against further cooperation with the Federation makes it a natural fit that the aide is part of the assassination (although he probably isn't the leader of the group).
I think it's unlikely that the Lustrate did it. I mean, if his goal was to undermine the alliance and have a Cardassian nationalist government -- why would he assassinate the Federation President? Why not just assassinate his own Castellan? He could surely have arranged to be on the trip to DS9 in advance, and as the number two in the Cardassian government, he'd probably be the one to take over.
I retain my suspicion of President Pro Tempore Ishan.
Bacco seems to have collected on the bad karma she's been collecting since she turned a blind eye to the coup by Picard and the others and the murder of Min Zife. I, for one, am glad to see that payback.
So she deserved to die? Christ, man. No one deserves that. And the Federation certainly didn't deserve the trauma of seeing its president assassinated.
Apparently you have no problem with the Federation President being secretly removed from office by the military and then later assassinated, as long as the people don't find out about it.
I would have preferred to see the entire cabal, including Bacco, brought to trial but for various reasons the authors have decided not to do it that way. The price still had to be paid and she paid with her life.
Of course, the problem is that there's no indication, no thematic link in the text, whatsoever, to her actions vis a vis Zife. She died for what, so far as we know, is a completely unrelated reason.
It may be a red herring, but it seems like there's something off about Castellan Garan's aide who volunteered to remain at DS9 while she was pressed to return to Cardassia. Not just that, this aide ostensibly was to meet and walk with the alleged assassin to the ceremony. He told station security he couldn't find her, but what if he did and slipped her the digital mickey?
Disaffected Cardassian groups have been known to cooperate and collaborate with Typhon Pact powers, including the Tzenkethi. Given that and the Cardassian nationalist groups' platform against further cooperation with the Federation makes it a natural fit that the aide is part of the assassination (although he probably isn't the leader of the group).
I think it's unlikely that the Lustrate did it. I mean, if his goal was to undermine the alliance and have a Cardassian nationalist government -- why would he assassinate the Federation President? Why not just assassinate his own Castellan? He could surely have arranged to be on the trip to DS9 in advance, and as the number two in the Cardassian government, he'd probably be the one to take over.
I retain my suspicion of President Pro Tempore Ishan.
To be clear, I wasn't referring to the lustrate — I was referring to Garan's aide, Onar Throk. He's the one who volunteered to remain behind and await the lustrate. Further, he's the one who reportedly was to meet Enkar Sirsy. Enkar was to meet him at his quarters, but didn't show. He claimed to have tried her quarters to no avail and reportedly went to the ceremony by himself.
There are some ways to possibly blow theory to hell, including someone else saying they saw Throk at the ceremony.
I'll grant that it might be Ishan. Heck, Ishan may be a primary instigator who used Throk (who has been in the Cardassian bureaucracy for decades — perhaps he has loyalties to something other than the democratic movement). There's no further information, but that could play into both the Cardassian isolationists and Bajorans opposed to detente with Cardassia. The Tzenkethi may have been involved because removing Bacco would remove one of the major players seeking a less antagonistic relationship with the Typhon Pact (who also reached out to the Pact's more moderate nation-states).
Now, as to seeking justice for the removal of President Zife, the process was ugly but that seemed to be the intent — as we seek a more perfect union, we often have to face demons of our own creation. What you're advocating, in part, was discussed by the characters in the several novels that addressed the issue and was reluctantly dismissed for the key reason it was nearly universally agreed that the Klingons would wage a ruinous, honor-fueled war of vengeance with the Federation, especially because the Federation would almost certainly refuse to surrender Zife to the Klingons for justice. IIRC, Captain Picard and the rest of the Enterprise crew reluctantly accepted this reality and kept their piece.
Consider the full ramifications of what may have happened based on further stories: If the Federation and the Klingons went to war, they would be extremely weakened by the time the Borg invasion was launched in masse. The likelihood of surviving the Borg invasion would have been significantly less — possibly near zero, given the number of separate individual actions that were needed for Alpha and Beta quadrant powers to ultimately prevail against devastating losses.
The specific events that instigated the invasion in "Destiny" may have been different, but the Borg's underlying motivations would've led to an invasion at some point.
Given the situation as the characters knew at the time and given the events to come, is the likely destruction of all non-Borg life in the galaxy worth bringing Zife to justice via proper channels (and later the conspirators that removed an obvious cancer from leadership)? Many American leaders and jurists have noted that the U.S. Constitution is not a suicide pact and that the duty to self-preservation can be higher than the strict adherence to what is referred to the highest law in the land. Consider President Gerald Ford's pardoning of his predecessor Richard Nixon. Nixon had resigned and was out of power, but further pursuit of justice could have fractured the country further.
Yes, Min Zife's removal was extralegal, but as other characters noted, the succession process was carried out following what we know about the Articles of Federation. When Bacco learned of Ross' involvement in her predecessor's removal, he was pressed into retirement to remove his influence on the administration.
That was the condition sought by Seeker reporter Ozla Graniv, who was able to gain leverage on the Bacco administration by bluffing. I don't know if the Bacco administration would confirm her findings on the record (but they wouldn't stop her either). That's key — Graniv couldn't publish what she had because the Orion Syndicate would kill her for publishing the information they provided her without attributing it to another group. Graniv's decision is another difficult between doing what is truthful and right and preserving the union and most of the ideals of which it stands.
I agree it is an imperfect solution, but as many Trek authors and Otto von Bismarck keep trying to tell us, politics is the art of the possible.
I wonder how the energy and propulsion of this book would've been different if it was organized into two parts: the DS9 narrative, ending with the surprise Bajora visitor arriving with absolutely no context, followed by the Kira/Keev narrative.
I enjoyed both stories, but found the alternating between narratives to be tonally jarring. Staying with DS9, then staying with Kira might've had more emotional punch.
I've mentioned this before, but this novel is basicly RBoE, it's a setup for more. It's like a two-parter on the tv-shows. Part 1 might not impress or make a lot of sense. But watching both episodes back to back, things become clear. I have a feeling that a lot of the things set in the 'past' will make much more sense when this story is continued/concluded.
You seem to think the rest of us are slack jawed idiots who couldn't work out a lot of this was set-up. I get it was set-up, everyone else here seems to get that, but I just don't give a shit because it was so dull. Setting up plot points isn't a excuse to make something uninteresting.
I've mentioned this before, but this novel is basicly RBoE, it's a setup for more. It's like a two-parter on the tv-shows. Part 1 might not impress or make a lot of sense. But watching both episodes back to back, things become clear. I have a feeling that a lot of the things set in the 'past' will make much more sense when this story is continued/concluded.
You seem to think the rest of us are slack jawed idiots who couldn't work out a lot of this was set-up. I get it was set-up, everyone else here seems to get that, but I just don't give a shit because it was so dull. Setting up plot points isn't a excuse to make something uninteresting.
If I could vote for something worse than poor, I would do it. I registered for an account, after years of lurking, just to vote poor.
As far as the whole "it's meant to setup other books" argument... It is my belief that every book should be its own complete story. Even if there are threads left open for sequels, each and every book should be its own entity, able to stand on its own. This book cannot do so.
A horrible waste of time and dead trees. If this was an episode of a Trek television show, it would have been a "clip show". You know, the ones that recycle footage from previous episodes to make up the majority of the content. Often this comes in the form of flashbacks, "remember when". Usually this is to save on a season's production budget. Wonder what the excuse was for this novel.
Well, that's what most of this book was. Remember when. If you cut out all of the clips, you'd be left with a short story about some Bajorans, an assassination, and a description of the new DS9 starbase. So... about 50 pages or so.
In fact, if you were to compare this to a 1-hour television show, the first 50 minutes would have been "Previously on Star Trek: Boring," with the final 10 minutes setting up a cliff-hanger. It wouldn't be good TV, and it's not good reading.
Look, I understand that there's a lot of backstory for the characters and events in this universe. But devoting that much space to it is ridiculous. I don't want to pay for stories I've already seen, or paid for and read in the past!
I don't need a play-by-play of Sisko's first encounter with the Prophets, with commentary by Kira. I don't need to read through Sisko and Yates playing "remember when" about their marriage. How many pages were devoted to Sisko's daughter's weirdness, without any of it being used in the story? I want a new story! That's why I bought a new book! If I wanted this retread, I'd have gone back to read the other books.
There's a murder mystery here waiting to be told... but it doesn't even start until 80% through the book. Forget about wrapping it up by that point. I knew by then that I was either going to get the most unmysterious murder ever, or I'd be left with a cliff-hanger the likes of which I'd never seen before. I mean, how many authors would dare to start their story hundreds of pages into a novel, then tell the readers to buy the next one if they want to find out what happened? I was righteously pissed before I ever reached the end, because I knew what was coming.
What a waste. My advice, wait for this to hit the bargain bin, or buy it secondhand. Or better yet, pick it up from your local library.
Consider the full ramifications of what may have happened based on further stories: If the Federation and the Klingons went to war, they would be extremely weakened by the time the Borg invasion was launched in masse. The likelihood of surviving the Borg invasion would have been significantly less — possibly near zero, given the number of separate individual actions that were needed for Alpha and Beta quadrant powers to ultimately prevail against devastating losses.
This argument is not convincing:
As per 'destiny', the chances of surviving a massive borg invasion were already practically 0*. And 10, 100 or 1000 ships more or less would not have influenced these chances to any significant degree.
What would have influenced the chances of survival positively would be new weapons - weaponising technologies/knowledge we know starfleet gained during its explorations (the most obvious - but far from unique - in trek lit being the taurus reach data - the utter incompetence starfleet demonstrated in dealing with this data borders on betrayal).
And a federation klingon war could have been just the event to spark such research projects.
*Starfleet's actions played no role in escaping annihilation beyond a ship randomly finding the caeliar and being a taxi service for a caeliar.
Given the situation as the characters knew at the time and given the events to come, is the likely destruction of all non-Borg life in the galaxy worth bringing Zife to justice via proper channels (and later the conspirators that removed an obvious cancer from leadership)? Many American leaders and jurists have noted that the U.S. Constitution is not a suicide pact and that the duty to self-preservation can be higher than the strict adherence to what is referred to the highest law in the land. Consider President Gerald Ford's pardoning of his predecessor Richard Nixon. Nixon had resigned and was out of power, but further pursuit of justice could have fractured the country further.
As far as the whole "it's meant to setup other books" argument... It is my belief that every book should be its own complete story. Even if there are threads left open for sequels, each and every book should be its own entity, able to stand on its own. This book cannot do so.
A horrible waste of time and dead trees. If this was an episode of a Trek television show, it would have been a "clip show". You know, the ones that recycle footage from previous episodes to make up the majority of the content. Often this comes in the form of flashbacks, "remember when". Usually this is to save on a season's production budget. Wonder what the excuse was for this novel.[...]
In fact, if you were to compare this to a 1-hour television show, the first 50 minutes would have been "Previously on Star Trek: Boring," with the final 10 minutes setting up a cliff-hanger. It wouldn't be good TV, and it's not good reading.[...]
A horrible waste of time and dead trees. If this was an episode of a Trek television show, it would have been a "clip show". You know, the ones that recycle footage from previous episodes to make up the majority of the content. Often this comes in the form of flashbacks, "remember when". Usually this is to save on a season's production budget. Wonder what the excuse was for this novel.
Well, that's what most of this book was. Remember when. If you cut out all of the clips, you'd be left with a short story about some Bajorans, an assassination, and a description of the new DS9 starbase. So... about 50 pages or so.
The novel was not mostly flashbacks - the Kira side of the story alone was at least 100 pages. Really the only flashbacks that I can remember are Kira watching "Emissary".
The novel was not mostly flashbacks - the Kira side of the story alone was at least 100 pages. Really the only flashbacks that I can remember are Kira watching "Emissary".
By "Kira" I suppose you mean Keeva, or whatever the Bajora woman was called? This was the "short story" I mentioned. I call it such because it had absolutely no bearing on the rest of the novel. (Minus the last sentence)
Still, the first third or so of the novel is flashbacks. Then more flashbacks are sprinkled in the rest of the way. It's just not good storytelling. It's the first time I've ever been angry at a Trek author, before I even get half-way through a book.
I've mentioned this before, but this novel is basicly RBoE, it's a setup for more. It's like a two-parter on the tv-shows. Part 1 might not impress or make a lot of sense. But watching both episodes back to back, things become clear. I have a feeling that a lot of the things set in the 'past' will make much more sense when this story is continued/concluded.
You seem to think the rest of us are slack jawed idiots who couldn't work out a lot of this was set-up. I get it was set-up, everyone else here seems to get that, but I just don't give a shit because it was so dull. Setting up plot points isn't a excuse to make something uninteresting.
I'm sorry you have the wrong impression of me. All I can say is I have no such perception of others. If you do believe that to be true, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about that.
The novel was not mostly flashbacks - the Kira side of the story alone was at least 100 pages. Really the only flashbacks that I can remember are Kira watching "Emissary".
By "Kira" I suppose you mean Keeva, or whatever the Bajora woman was called? This was the "short story" I mentioned. I call it such because it had absolutely no bearing on the rest of the novel.
You didn't notice the thematic contrast, or draw any conclusions about the comparison between Bajor's history and its present?
Sounds to me like you wanted an action-driven story -- which is fine, but DRGIII's books are usually character-driven rather than action driven. You're not judging the book on its own terms, and that's unfair. You might as well get mad that the movie Tinker Tailor Solider Spy was too slow and introspective instead of being fast-paced and action-packed like Casino Royale.
DRGIII's books are in generally character-based and gradually build pressure to a boil instead of turning the heat up right away. That's just his writing style; it's the kind of story that works for him and for his fans. Don't read DRGIII expecting David Mack (who is equally brilliant in a different way); don't watch Tinker Tailor Solider Spy expecting Casino Royale (again, equally brilliant in a different way).
So, I went through the first half of the book, just to make sure my initial impressions weren't completely off base... Here's a breakdown by chapter.
Prologue - Kira flashback
One - DS9 description
Two - Kira flashback
Three - DS9 description / Blackmer flashback / Politics
Four - Kira flashback
Five - Sisko flashback / Odo flashback
Six - Kira flashback / Keev short story
Seven - Dax flashback / Bacco flashback / Bashir flashback
Eight - Keev short story
Nine - Quark flashback / Politics / Sisko flashback
Ten - Keev short story
Eleven - O'Brien flashback / The start of the real story
This is excessive use of flashbacks. Especially considering they don't stop there.
You didn't notice the thematic contrast, or draw any conclusions about the comparison between Bajor's history and its present?
Sounds to me like you wanted an action-driven story -- which is fine, but DRGIII's books are usually character-driven rather than action driven. You're not judging the book on its own terms, and that's unfair. You might as well get mad that the movie Tinker Tailor Solider Spy was too slow and introspective instead of being fast-paced and action-packed like Casino Royale.
DRGIII's books are in generally character-based and gradually build pressure to a boil instead of turning the heat up right away. That's just his writing style; it's the kind of story that works for him and for his fans. Don't read DRGIII expecting David Mack (who is equally brilliant in a different way); don't watch Tinker Tailor Solider Spy expecting Casino Royale (again, equally brilliant in a different way).
I had no problem with the Bajora short story included in this novel. At least it was NEW content. It was a bit slow at first, but in the end, it was probably the best part of this whole book.
So, I went through the first half of the book, just to make sure my initial impressions weren't completely off base... Here's a breakdown by chapter.
Prologue - Kira flashback
One - DS9 description
Two - Kira flashback
Three - DS9 description / Blackmer flashback / Politics
Four - Kira flashback
Five - Sisko flashback / Odo flashback
Six - Kira flashback / Keev short story
Seven - Dax flashback / Bacco flashback / Bashir flashback
Eight - Keev short story
Nine - Quark flashback / Politics / Sisko flashback
Ten - Keev short story
Eleven - O'Brien flashback / The start of the real story
This is excessive use of flashbacks. Especially considering they don't stop there.
... you seem to be confusing the term "flashback" with basic character introspection on previous events. This introspection is just basic competence in writing three-dimensional characters.
... you seem to be confusing the term "flashback" with basic character introspection on previous events. This introspection is just basic competence in writing three-dimensional characters.
I am using "flashback" as a general term for either flashbacks as we all know them, "remember when" conversations, or character introspection where they "remember when" to themselves. A dash of that is fine... 2/3rds of the first half of the novel is excessive. More in the latter half is abusive.
My point is, I want NEW plot, not a rehash of old plot. I essentially paid for a summary of novels past, plus a short story about ancient Bajoran resistance movement, a description of DS9 mkII, and a teaser for the next novel.
... you seem to be confusing the term "flashback" with basic character introspection on previous events. This introspection is just basic competence in writing three-dimensional characters.
I am using "flashback" as a general term for either flashbacks as we all know them, "remember when" conversations, or character introspection where they "remember when" to themselves.
This was a new plot, but, again, DRGIII's books are primarily about character introspection before plot. What this boils down to is that that doesn't work for you -- which is fine, but it does work very well for others. I was very happy with the levels of character introspection in this book; it's an aspect of the novel format that you can't get on TV.
This was a new plot, but, again, DRGIII's books are primarily about character introspection before plot. What this boils down to is that that doesn't work for you -- which is fine, but it does work very well for others. I was very happy with the levels of character introspection in this book; it's an aspect of the novel format that you can't get on TV.
I voted this books story outstanding. I really enjoyed this book and the suprising twists and turns at the end of the book
was the vision of Kira and Siskos's daughter talking about Ben Sisko's path has changed from a road of Sorrow to anew path and that time is a continuum and that Ben Sisko needs to be warned about some kind of danger. I certainly didn't expect Altek Das to appear on Deepspace 9 and sent by the wormhole aliens or for Kira to appear on a ship with traan'tor either. I also wonder who killed Nan bacco and how they're going to unravel the who the killer is in the upcoming books.
I certainly can't wait to read the next 4 books coming out in the next few months!
I voted this books story outstanding. I really enjoyed this book and the suprising twists and turns at the end of the book
