Spoilers Tech issue with 1x06

[marsh8472]

Oh wow. That's a real tough one. Here are some more unthinkable canon violations for you:

KIRK: All right, all right, gentlemen. As you were. Rig for tractor beam, Helm. Lock onto that vessel.
SPINELLI: Rigging for tractor beam, sir.

^ Can't use a tractor beam without ol' Spinelli here. So this is not canon:

SPOCK: Computer control. Lock on to shuttlecraft following us.
COMPUTER: Locked on. Tractor beam ready.

And you might want to look away, because these ones might give you an aneurysm:

HANSEN: Sir, there's nobody up there giving orders. Mister Spock has the computers running the ship.

SCOTT: As promised, she's all yours, sir. All systems automated and ready. A chimpanzee and two trainees could run her.

Beaming within the ship without someone manning it though, where's your example for that. Also pulling quotes from the refit Enterprise way out into the future in Star Trek III to justify Discovery? Really?

 

[marsh8472]

Oh wow. That's a real tough one. Here are some more unthinkable canon violations for you:

KIRK: All right, all right, gentlemen. As you were. Rig for tractor beam, Helm. Lock onto that vessel.
SPINELLI: Rigging for tractor beam, sir.

^ Can't use a tractor beam without ol' Spinelli here. So this is not canon:

SPOCK: Computer control. Lock on to shuttlecraft following us.
COMPUTER: Locked on. Tractor beam ready.

And you might want to look away, because these ones might give you an aneurysm:

HANSEN: Sir, there's nobody up there giving orders. Mister Spock has the computers running the ship.

SCOTT: As promised, she's all yours, sir. All systems automated and ready. A chimpanzee and two trainees could run her.

From "This Side of Paradise"

SPOCK: What's keeping you, Jim? We've been waiting.

[Transporter room]

KIRK: I've been packing some things, and I realise there's some equipment here that we should have down at the settlement.

[Field]

KIRK [OC]: You know we can't come back on board once the last of us has left.

They need people to operate the transporters^

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[zar]

Beaming within the ship without someone manning it though, where's your example for that.

Argument from ignorance number 47.

Also pulling quotes from the refit Enterprise way out into the future in Star Trek III to justify Discovery? Really?

A 10 year old refit of a ship that was already 30 years old as of TMP, versus brand-new Discovery 10 years before TOS... yeah, why not?
And of course, you're conveniently leaving out the fact that Spock did the same thing in TOS.

 

[marsh8472]

Argument from ignorance number 47.


A 10 year old refit of a ship that was already 30 years old as of TMP, versus brand-new Discovery 10 years before TOS... yeah, why not?
And of course, you're conveniently leaving out the fact that Spock did the same thing in TOS.

The transporter process in Discovery is faster too. Why is that? I think you've shown how desperate your excuses are when you went to the movies there. Now you're watering down the tech from the movies to justify it.

 

[Jinn]

I agree that not every Klingon was infected. But DSC so far hasn't given any indication they're going to acknowledge what ENT did.

Why should they? If they specifically mentioned it they would probably only confuse new viewers who weren't even really aware of the TOS Klingons or at least the Enterprise retcon and they wouldn't do anything new for the viewers who are already familiar to Trek.

This is season 3 too, so we're talking about some 13 to 15 years from where Discovery is now. Then they do it on discovery like it's no big deal. Why pretend that's appropriate?

"Day of the Dove" is usually seen as playing in 2268 (October or November in my timeline) and DSC is currently in very late 2256/very early 2257 so it's more like twelve years later but that's just me being nerdy about the Star Trek timeline and has really nothing to do with the actual argument going on.

Also, why would you need a human to operate the transporter for intra-ship beaming. Shouldn't a computer be better suited for the complicated calculations or whatever the reason intra-ship beaming is so hard? Actually I just checked Memory Alpha and it said that there was no reason stated why intra-ship beaming was so risky but the tech manual implied that the reason was that the emitters were focused away from the ship. Since Discovery is a newer ship, maybe it also has emitters focused inward to allow easy intra-ship beaming.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

lol

The transporter process in Discovery is faster too. Why is that?

The part were Discovery is about ten years newer than Enterprise? Could that be it?

 

[marsh8472]

Argument from ignorance number 47.

Burden of proof shift number 47. Discovery fits in with post 24th century. Like when Nero showed Captain Richard Robau that hologram of Spock out in the air. That's the same technology being used common place everywhere in the series. How do you explain that?

 

[Noname Given]

Beaming within the ship without someone manning it though, where's your example for that. Also pulling quotes from the refit Enterprise way out into the future in Star Trek III to justify Discovery? Really?

Watch the episode - TOS - "Day of the Dove"
http://iframespot.blogspot.com/?m=0...1&start=2600&info=0&logo=0&social=0&related=0
^^^
Spock set everything from the Bridge - no one was running the Console

 

[Jinn]

Burden of proof shift number 47. Discovery fits in with post 24th century. Like when Nero showed Captain Richard Robau that hologram of Spock out in the air. That's the same technology being used common place everywhere in the series. How do you explain that?

You are not seriously going to argue that because a technology existed over a longer time span every apperance of that technology has to be at the end of the time span or is a canon breach, or are you?

The Discovery show is set before TOS but we have to get a better grasp of the order of the ships technological progress: NX-01<Enterprise-1701<Discovery<Enterprise-D<Voyager

 

[zar]

From "This Side of Paradise"

They need people to operate the transporters^

lol, yes, because literally deserting the entire ship and running the transporters remotely is the same thing, right? Even in TNG they still can't do this, without pre-planning and using specialized tech (transponders). Face it: You have no evidence that preprogramming transporters is impossible (while preprogramming everything else is, strangely) other than the fact that you haven't seen it. It's an argument from ignorance.

The transporter process in Discovery is faster too. Why is that? I think you've shown how desperate your excuses are when you went to the movies there. Now you're watering down the tech from the movies to justify it.

There you go trying to distract us again. I gave you two examples from TOS and one example from a movie. So you latch on to the movie, ignore the argument and replace it with another one (look, it's faster!). Let me guess, we're "clinging" to the movies now?

Burden of proof shift number 47.

Please stop using words you don't understand.

Discovery fits in with post 24th century. Like when Nero showed Captain Richard Robau that hologram of Spock out in the air. That's the same technology being used common place everywhere in the series. How do you explain that?

You must be thinking of The Undiscovered Country, because that was the first time we saw people using holo-coms. And in the same movie, someone uses paper. How do you explain that? How can things exist in years other than the one they were invented?? I just don't understand!

 

[Jinn]

You must be thinking of The Undiscovered Country, because that was the first time we saw people using holo-coms. And in the same movie, someone uses paper. How do you explain that? How can things exist in years other than the one they were invented?? I just don't understand!

Pike used paper in "The Cage". It fits in perfectly with the movie ere!

 

[Spot261]

Yeah, they weren't the best examples. A better would be GPS. The whole analogy is moot, though, because there's really no reason to think the tech we've seen wasn't available to the rest of the fleet (other than the S-drive of course) just because they weren't mentioned, and we know that wasn't the writers' intentions.

Yeah, I was really just illustrating a point about how we can all play pedant or pick and choose definitions in order to divert a thread with pettiness

 

[Saul]

But I guess they don't want to lose those 10% of die-hard fans who said the show would be ruined if they admitted it was a reboot.

Considering the state of the Kelvin film timeline's future they might be right.

 

[marsh8472]

lol, yes, because literally deserting the entire ship and running the transporters remotely is the same thing, right? Even in TNG they still can't do this, without pre-planning and using specialized tech (transponders). Face it: You have no evidence that preprogramming transporters is impossible (while preprogramming everything else is, strangely) other than the fact that you haven't seen it. It's an argument from ignorance.

If they take the time to create the technology to have the computer do the beaming for them then it's possible. In fact we see it done in post-TNG. But Discovery is not in the post-TNG era, that's the point.

There you go trying to distract us again. I gave you two examples from TOS and one example from a movie. So you latch on to the movie, ignore the argument and replace it with another one (look, it's faster!). Let me guess, we're "clinging" to the movies now?

Like you did with the tractor beam examples? A little projecting there. Grasping at straws with outlier episodes isn't helping you. Why complain about me having a million arguments? Do you see me complaining about the dogpiling attempts? Just keep up

Please stop using words you don't understand.

It's not an argument from ignorance. You must not know what that means. It's called inductive reasoning. The whole point of canon is to establish these rules so we get a feel for what each era can and cannot do. If we only see this tech in the far future and never see it in any episode ever and we have dialogue that says they don't possess this technology, then they almost certainly do not possess that technology. It's so certain that in the practical sense, it is impossible that they should have that type of technology at this time.

You must be thinking of The Undiscovered Country, because that was the first time we saw people using holo-coms. And in the same movie, someone uses paper. How do you explain that? How can things exist in years other than the one they were invented?? I just don't understand!

And we did not see it in the original series. We saw it alittle in Enterprise but in those cases it was with technology from the 31st century.

^technology that starfleet uses in Star Trek Discovery

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well, this doesn't surprise me. I remember you were saying weeks ago that the holo-coms were "Doctor level", so I know you especially struggle with this concept of "technology in stages".

Forgive me for wanting my technological progression depicted in the show as opposed to some producer's tweets.

 

[zar]

Forgive me for wanting my technological progression depicted in the show as opposed to some producer's tweets.

Yeah, "show, don't tell". But... are you sure this is what you want? It seems like you want the opposite. The show is doing this, but apparently you can't tell the difference between different stages of technology unless it's spoonfed to you. Would you believe we figured this out all on our own from watching the show, before reading Ted's tweet?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I agree that not every Klingon was infected. But DSC so far hasn't given any indication they're going to acknowledge what ENT did.

I really like Discovery, and if they continue to ignore the augment virus fiasco, I will love it even more!

 

[zar]

If they take the time to create the technology to have the computer do the beaming for them then it's possible. In fact we see it done in post-TNG. But Discovery is not in the post-TNG era, that's the point.

You're not getting it. Your argument here is that since Kirk can't beam himself up to an empty ship without extra technology, therefore he can't do any kind of beaming without a transporter operator in the transporter room.

In TNG, they can do beaming via computer instead of a transporter operator in the transporter room, right? But they still need armbands, transponders or whatever to be able to do remote transport to an empty ship. It's not the same thing.

Kirk and the gang may or may not have had emergency transponders as an option. That's not the point. The point is your logic makes no sense.

Like you did with the tractor beam examples?

No. That was me showing your inconsistent logic again. It was "Look, Kirk tells Scott to operate the transporter, so computer controlled transporters is non-canon." I responded, "Look, Kirk tells Helm to operate the tractor beam, so computer controlled tractor beams is non-canon." They're both the same argument, both equally nonsense. The only difference is that one example of computer automation happened within TOS, and the other happened in DSC, so of course you declare that DSC is non-canon. It's totally arbitrary and illogical.

A little projecting there.

Why complain about me having a million arguments?

Because:

I'm seeing that your strategy is to post an argument, distract from the responses to it with a different argument, then circle back to the first argument as if the responses never happened, and keep the thread going in cycles forever. Do you even want to have a conversation?

If you actually brought one argument to its conclusion before moving on to the next one and resetting old ones, there wouldn't be a problem.

And we did not see it in the original series. We saw it alittle in Enterprise but in those cases it was with technology from the 31st century.

^technology that starfleet uses in Star Trek Discovery

Okay, so let's recap.

DSC: 2256
TUC: 2293
ST09: 2387

So, we saw floaty holo-coms 94 years before this in TUC, but nowhere in between. But that's fine. However, DSC breaks everything because it uses holo-coms 37 years before TUC, and you didn't see them in TOS. It's so clear now! Your impeccable, consistent logic never fails to amaze.


Bonus round - Marsh8472 versus Marsh8472:

They can manufacture a ton of gemstones on their ship and can feed/cloth themselves. You don't know how they can do that without replication technology therefore it was done with replication technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance. It's not my job to explain how they do it without replication technology. The burden of proof is on you to prove that they can.

It's not an argument from ignorance. You must not know what that means. It's called inductive reasoning. The whole point of canon is to establish these rules so we get a feel for what each era can and cannot do.

 

[Jinn]

If they take the time to create the technology to have the computer do the beaming for them then it's possible. In fact we see it done in post-TNG. But Discovery is not in the post-TNG era, that's the point.

But why does that mean that the tach can't be around before?

 

[Mudd]

a) It isn't a holodeck.

b) Similar technology displayed could realistically come about in our lifetime, so why not in Trek a hundred years in the future?

The thing in STD functions identically to a holodeck, so who the fuck cares what they call it?

 

[Jinn]

The thing in STD functions identically to a holodeck, so who the fuck cares what they call it?

Except for the part where the users can interact with the holo-characters.