TBBS and treatment of women

[An Officer]

If the troller did not mean to troll then he was not trolling. Trollers by definition have intent to troll.

This is beside the entire point (as the topic is not about trolling), but if you must, here's what I'm saying: a troller trolls, then says "oops, I didn't mean to troll", and so all is fine? Can't be. There is a system already in place, and that is a friendly, if the poster persists after a friendly, a warning is justified.

Having said that, I do not see why sexism and creepiness cannot be drawn under the umbrella of trolling for ease of warning, since Alidar Jarok complained about how to issue the infraction. If a sticky announcement has been made on the problem, and everyone now (with the help of this thread) knows it's unacceptable, then I would say that type of behaviour could be argued to be trolling.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Most trolling, imo, is left unwarned. It's only in clear cases of a blatant action or a pattern that can be carefully documented is a trolling warning issued that can stand up if they try and appeal it. "Creepy" is harder still because I genuinely think most posters that do it just happen to be so socially awkward that they don't really know what they're doing is wrong and are incapable of taking a hint otherwise. In addition, there's also less moderator experience to go on, so it's harder to enforce something new.

 

[An Officer]

In addition, there's also less moderator experience to go on, so it's harder to enforce something new.

Now we get a hint into the root of the problem. Moderators are not used to taking action on creepiness/sexism, and so, they carry on as before, because it is too hard to set new concrete guidelines, and they are wary of being challenged by posters, and risk being overruled. This says to me we need to be far clearer in exactly what sort of language/behaviour is warnable. Apparently, previous discussions were not empowering enough of the staff.

In the meantime, this board is losing quality posters.

No one said modding is easy, it is a difficult, thankless job, and I am thankful for those who do it. Now they are asked to modernise themselves just a little, and do one more unpleasant job. We have entered a new decade after all!

Thank you for being so honest Alidar Jarok, my comments are not directed at you alone, but the staff in general. You at least have been extremely forthcoming and explained the problems you face as staff, rather than throwing snarky remarks at individual posters without making any attempt at all to help clarify the issue or facilitate the discussion.

 

[tharpdevenport]

The board has been loosing quality all over for a few years now. There was more quality in Enterpriser's 30 post a day in Misc., then today.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I should clarify that I'm not speaking for anyone besides myself when I say these things. I don't think there's just one reason why I've resisted acting in this area. There's a little bit of a feeling of my hands being tied and a whole lot of uncertainty in just what road we want to go down. I've hoped in the past that simply telling a poster that something is unacceptable could change the result, but I've long since given up hope in this regard.

At the same time, even if it were easy to act otherwise, it's still quite possible to miss the signs of creepy posters. Obviously, moderators can't read every post (I also have a forum that no one ever posts in, since my ability to act in this regard is superfluous).

EDIT: People come and go all the time. I don't think misc atmosphere is the biggest reason people leave, although it is certainly a reason. I think turnover has always been common, it just stings more when it's people you know and like that are the ones that decide to leave.

 

[tharpdevenport]

But as with real life, it is plain & simple: women do not think, approach, or want sex like men. Sure there are some rare instances, but in real life, they just aren't men, and as a result they don't feel the inclination to post and then lust over some shirtless guy, like Kevin Bacon (how in the world can anybody find him sexy???). Men say, "I'd hit that!" because in reality, 90& WOULD HIT THAT if given the chance (I'd say the rest would cower in fear at the site of a real women offering), while women, on the other hand, would not.

To put it into perspective, most of us have heard the "Ask for a hundred girls for sex, at one will say 'Yes'." phrase before, well, for girls: "Ask a hundred men for sex, and you'll have to buy a waiting number dispenser.".

Should we be surprised when guys take their sexuallity from real life and turn it into postings?

While there are certainly differences between males and females, it's nothing as significant as you portray.

Oh yes it is. A random guy you don't know comes up to you and asks if you want to have sex, would you say yes? Assuming you are single when that happens.

Some random hot girl walks up to me and asks for sex, I'd say yes.
This is a quickie (no pun intended), so we'll leave out detials and questions, like "STD free?". Just for comparritive purposes.

I don't feel the need to communicate my sexuality constantly.

And therein lies the difference. You don't, a random guys does. What is it you are trying to say here?

Many women are very sexual creatures and implying otherwise makes us feel like there's something wrong with us. And there isn't.

Well, what are you trying to imply? There's something wrong with men just because they are vocal about it?

And for the record, spoken to, been with, listened to, read posts of too many girls to agree with you.

I feel like we're slipping into territory here where it's about men being so sexual it's like they can't control themselves or something. Let's not go there; it's insulting to everyone involved.

Who says we're TRYING???

 

[Alidar Jarok]

[post deleted]

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Thank you for being so honest Alidar Jarok, my comments are not directed at you alone, but the staff in general. You at least have been extremely forthcoming and explained the problems you face as staff, rather than throwing snarky remarks at individual posters without making any attempt at all to help clarify the issue or facilitate the discussion.

People don't take kindly to being called sexist or facilitators for sexism when they're not (and in fact frequently oppose it publicly), and when no evidence of their alleged sexism has been presented to back up the accusation. If someone accused you of chauvinism or racism or the like I'm sure you would be equally "snarky." Notice I didn't insult you in the way you chose to baselessly smear all of us, however.

We've had this same debate twice a year for the past three or four years, always with the same players, and the answer remains the same now as it was then... notify on the posts you find sexist or contact one or more of the moderators or admins privately to discuss the issue with them. Alternatively, document a series of issues and then present them all at once to demonstrate the pattern of behavior you allege is occurring. That doesn't mean every one of your (general you) complaints will be addressed, because not all of them may be valid. We get a lot of notifications that are not even remotely actionable. That doesn't mean they were ignored, that means they were discussed in the BR and the consensus (not just from the Miscellaneous mod "old boys club," as you call us; all the mods, male and female can contribute) was that it was not actionable.

But complaining about how "something must be done" without actively making suggestions or taking steps to participate in the solution is useless. As is lashing out at the people here who are trying to do their best to provide a fun environment for everyone that doesn't go overboard into either anarchy (as was laughably suggested has already happened) or oppressiveness. I thought we took action and there has actually been great improvement over the situation regarding women in Miscellaneous from before, but the way you talk about it there's been no change at all. Yet, our notifications on these issues are way down. Our complaints about those kinds of issues are way down, and not just because all the female posters have left, because they haven't; not by a long shot. If it's so constant an issue, why aren't you guys notifying on it? Alternatively, why aren't you politely calling out people for their behavior in the thread itself, so long as you remain within the rules?

This problem could be solved if people actually tried to work together with the staff (yes, even the ones you hate) instead of just complaining about them. I'm not hearing the back and forth dialogue though until we get to a thread like this and wild accusations start getting thrown around.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

OK, even though I am a mod myself, I have to say it's a pretty bum rap to lay this issue at the feet of the mods. Are you people not adults? Are you not capable of examining your own behavior? Kestra and J (and some others) got it. This isn't about the mods cracking down, it's about you guys taking a hard look at what you say and how you say it and trying to put yourself into someone else's shoes.

I wasn't starting this thread as a mod but as a regular poster sick of the subtly (and sometimes not-so-subtly) misogynistic atmosphere here.

And tharp? That bit where you commented on Kestra saying she likes/has sex a lot? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Guys here wear their sexuality on their sleeves, and the women dare not because a dozen guys will pile on and salivate over her. It's disgusting and it needs to stop. The female posters here are not here for our sexual gratification, they're here to participate just like everyone else. Yeah, maybe some of them want the attention, and if you're comfortable that you've picked up the right vibe, then go for it. But I see too much of women here posting perfectly innocuous things and having half the board jump on to tell them how gorgeous/hot/whatever they are. Or if a woman makes any mention of sex, that's an immediate cue to start hitting on her mercilessly. Jesus Christ, people.

 

[Shatnertage]

Back to the OP, this is something that's bugged me a bit. Sometimes, it seems mean-spirited, but most of the time it just comes across as guys who aren't very sophisticated.

If I ever feel like something might be over the line, I do two things:

1. Think, "How would my wife feel if she read this?"

2. Add "...he said on a Star Trek Forum" to the sentence.

#1 probably takes care of any creepy/stalkerish stuff, and if you don't have a wife you can substitute whoever you want...even "potential future girlfriend," for the same effect.

#2 would put a stop to some of the sillier things I've seen, like guys bragging about their sexual prowess or the size of their penis, or speculating about the penis size of other posters. I really don't know what that's about.

 

[Shaw]

Why is anyone (guys or gals) talking about their sex lives... specially any of the member's who are complaining the loudest here?

TMI people, TMI!

I'm pretty open about my life, but I don't comment about any of the sex aspects... why are any of you guys/gals?

An Officer started threads on exhibitionist and being naked. I'm a guy, but I would never consider starting suggestive threads like that.

All the stuff that Robert brought up about derogatory terms... I agree 110%. In fact, it seems like some people can't post without the use of expletives. I'd like to see all that type of stuff dialed way back (as allowing some invites the rest).

But it is a heck of a lot easier to zero in on creepy behavior when nothing suggestive (by the person feeling creeped out) preceded it. If you've posted nothing sexual or suggestive and someone posts something sexual or intrusive in response, that would be 100% clear creepy... that any mod could act on.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I admit I'm really bad about the swearing, and living in New Jersey has only made it worse, but I nevertheless try to avoid sex-oriented insults.

 

[tharpdevenport]

This isn't about the mods cracking down, it's about you guys taking a hard look at what you say and how you say it and trying to put yourself into someone else's shoes.

Preface: this isn't targeted at you, but the thought expressed above.

In general terms, though, why is it men have to take a look at themselves? Why isn't it that women also put themselves in a man's shoes? Why does it have to be a guy just because women are more closed on sex and communicating about it?

Why not a middle ground? Why do men have to have it female posters ways just because the female poster might be ofended in some sense? Since when does TrekBBS side with one groups of folks and tell everybody else to watch their P's & Q's?

Addendum: I speak for guys who do not intentionally post nasty things, or verbally assult female posters with ill will behind it.

 

[backstept]

my dad had several sayings that I learned growing up
one was:
"Think before do."

You are more likely to get in trouble for what you say if you simply say what you think, rather than think about what you will say.

 

[Kestra]

I've been thinking about this a bit more and I think it's a real shame that this thread has gone in the direction it has. Basically, what could have been a discussion to enlighten people has turned into criticizing the mods for not doing more. Or even insinuating that they are part of the problem.

And they're not. Not in this situation. Locutus and others absolutely do not deserve to be criticized or attacked. I haven't seen any mods exhibiting sexist behaviour but if I did, I'd report it. Everyone else should do the same.

Instead what we have here is people beating up on themselves or getting beat up by others, when they don't deserve it. And the real offenders remain oblivious. That's been one of the big problems all along. We should try to figure out a way to educate people without criticizing those who go out of their way to promote an atmosphere of equality.

 

[T'Bonz]

Well, here are my comments and suggestions.

Everyone has a different threshold of what they find offensive. I'm a woman, for instance, and most of this doesn't make it over my personal radar, because of my tenure online. That doesn't mean your points are invalid, it means that everyone has a different idea of what they find to be a problem. That includes posters, mods, admins, all of us.

So - here is my solution. If you think someone is crossing the line, hit the mod notify (even if the post is not directly aimed at you.) This will help in documenting things, and will alert us that there is a problem about which we need to think/act. It will certainly get *my* attention, as I don't read every thread in Misc.

I'd like to see if there is a pattern. If Poster A has had several notifies sent on his (or her, in case a woman crosses a line) behavior and it's more than once, it should be pretty clear that an admin or myself would need to speak to said person. And I assure you, I'm easy-going, but if someone blows me off, I react. Negatively.

So do this. Let us see what you find offensive. Let us see if we can handle this properly. All but a minority, I think, aren't trying to be a problem, they just don't think before they hit submit. Locker room mentality or birds of a feather or whatever. Most are decent and if reminded that they need to throttle back, will. If not, well, on their heads so be it.

That does not mean every notify sent will merit action, that will have to be determined depending on what we see. But the first step to even beginning to handle this is to communicate. Mod notify will do that. It has come to my attention (again) so let's see what happens with this.

The mods do a good job in here from where I'm sitting. It's a tricky thing at times to determine that line between OK and not OK and even the mods (and myself) have our own opinions, as do you all. We need to figure out where an acceptable line is and then we can all be on the same page and hopefully hammer out something that will satisfy us all, or at least the majority.

But I think hard data being sent to us will help in this matter. So by all means, hit that mod notify if someone is crossing the line.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Does one hit that buttom if it is against them, or they notice it going on to someone else?

And what exactly constitues actionable button hitting? Example, in the picture thread I see guys making comments like "Hey, how you doin'?" with drolling icons, to female posters. And sometimes other male posters. I don't keep a list, but I swear one or two have done this that, and posts of that nature, repeatedly to other members.

 

[Jax]

The Christina Aguilera/national anthem thread really clinched it for me, I think.

"Pop tramp," "pop tart," etc. As if a woman should be defined primarily by the fact that she is a woman, and being a woman is a bad thing, particularly if she appears to be the least bit in control of her sexuality. What is this, the 1950s?

The way some people have been going at Christina Aguilera for mixing up a few words in a song, you would think she killed a child LIVE on stage or something.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I hope we can all foster a better environment one way or another. It sucks if posters have left the site due to this issue.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Does one hit that buttom if it is against them, or they notice it going on to someone else?

Both.

And what exactly constitues actionable button hitting? Example, in the picture thread I see guys making comments like "Hey, how you doin'?" with drolling icons, to female posters. And sometimes other male posters. I don't keep a list, but I swear one or two have done this that, and posts of that nature, repeatedly to other members.

If you feel it crosses the line into creepiness or inappropriate behavior, notify on it, and we'll decide if it violates the board rules or fits a pattern of behavior that's a problem. It's not a hard and fast rule that you can just provide examples to cover all scenarios. The two examples above can both qualify given the context (whether it's a joke or not, etc.).