Sybok. Do you think he was doing the right thing?

[publiusr]

Sybok should have just hung around an airport.

He is less oily than Tom Cruise’s boss.

The novel Black Fire would have been better for him I think…I did like the Enterprise episode where those like him were on their own little way to Eden on his own version of La Sirena, with a competently crewed Enterprise swooping in.

For a TOS episode, I can forgive the brainwashing of the whole crew early.

Here though I might have had McCoy on Sybok’s ship…the Enterprise following him…maybe Sybok on his last legs needing some go-juice.

I might allow a landing party “conversion” right before the showdown…to really get hopes up before seeing them dashed.

Then, too, Mephisto was always my favorite Marvel character…

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Ha, fair point. And I get that wasn't the story Shatner wanted to tell. But since he did finally go along with it, it would have been nice for it to see it tickle his explorer bone.

IIRC, there's a point in TFF where Kirk says to Sybok, "Let me DO something!" It points out one of the big flaws with STV's story: Kirk and the crew are reactive, not active. It's the same story problem that sinks TMP: Too much of the film is just the crew sitting around on the bridge being passive observers in their own movie. You want to see Kirk & company grab the bull by the horns and start affecting the story.

His powers are suspiciously similar to mind-control.

Well, it was. Sulu and Uhura were certainly not in their right minds after Sybok took them over, and George Takei and Nichelle Nichols acted like they were mindless zombies for that portion of the film.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well, it was. Sulu and Uhura were certainly not in their right minds after Sybok took them over, and George Takei and Nichelle Nichols acted like they were mindless zombies for that portion of the film.

Yeah, which was a direct rebellion against Shatner's direction.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yeah, which was a direct rebellion against Shatner's direction.

I hadn't heard that, but not too surprising. Way to stay professional, folks.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Yeah, which was a direct rebellion against Shatner's direction.

Do you have a source for that? Cuz that doesn't do much other than make them look like bad actors....

From what I read, while they may not have LIKED Shatner, they were surprised at how well he treated them as director. Since he was without any doubt in charge, many of his on-set insecurities were nowhere to be found.

And honestly, Takei had some of his best business in Star Trek V, more than any previous Trek film. He got to do an action bit, had a great moment in the shuttle and got lots of screen time. Nichelle had a ton of screen time as well. They came off better than Doohan with his pratfall and obvious dialog.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Do you have a source for that? Cuz that doesn't do much other than make them look like bad actors.....

The Final Frontier "making of" book.

Shatner wanted Kirk alone and utterly betrayed by everyone.

There was pushback against the idea the crew would voluntarily betray him and wanted to play it as straight mind control. They said their characters wouldn't do that.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And honestly, Takei had some of his best business in Star Trek V, more than any previous Trek film. He got to do an action bit, had a great moment in the shuttle and got lots of screen time. Nichelle had a ton of screen time as well. They came off better than Doohan with his pratfall and obvious dialog.

I remember Takei saying in a Starlog interview for STV that he and the rest of the supporting players had "apprehensions" about Shatner directing, but he exceeded their expectations.

I also recall another supporting actor (can't remember which) complaining in their interview that Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, and Sulu only had "cheap shots" in the film. So, whatever. They were on the fifth film by that point. If they were under any illusions that'd they have more to do than what they usually got, they were fooling themselves. I get that it's frustrating to not be allowed to show everything you can do, but a certain point you just shut up, do your job, and polish that turd as best you can.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The Final Frontier "making of" book.

Shatner wanted Kirk alone and utterly betrayed by everyone.

There was pushback against the idea the crew would voluntarily betray him and wanted to play it as straight mind control. They said their characters wouldn't do that.

Okay, that makes more sense, but I wouldn't call that direct rebellion, that's along the lines of what Nimoy and Kelley objected to. That after all they had been through, they wouldn't just up and betray Kirk. I actually agree with it. I know Shatner wanted to play it as "a man alone" but for this instance, I absolutely see their point. It wasn't rebelling against Shatner's direction but the story. I actually was fine with how they played it. Koenig also played it as if Sybok was bending his will and it worked out fine.

I remember Takei saying in a Starlog interview for STV that he and the rest of the supporting players had "apprehensions" about Shatner directing, but he exceeded their expectations.

I also recall another supporting actor (can't remember which) complaining in their interview that Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, and Sulu only had "cheap shots" in the film.

Pretty damned sure that was Doohan. It sounds like him and by the time the 90's rolled around his dislike of Shatner was almost a disease on its own. He was vehement in his hatred.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Koenig also played it as if Sybok was bending his will and it worked out fine.

Well, I'd say that Koenig's a better actor than either Takei or Nichols. (But to be fair, Koenig actually got a scene to play there. I think Sulu and Uhura are both taken over offscreen.)

Pretty damned sure that was Doohan. It sounds like him and by the time the 90's rolled around his dislike of Shatner was almost a disease on its own. He was vehement in his hatred.

Probably. He and Takei were the two most likely to publicly bash Shatner, while Koenig was of the "bite your tongue, suffer in silence and just grin and bear it" school, even when Shatner apparently blanked on his name during the STV press conference.

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Nichols said in Shatner's Star Trek Memories book that her attitude was always "I can call him an SOB, but don't YOU dare." So they varied in how they handled it.

Leonard Nimoy tells a story on Shatner's Mind Meld DVD of one of the supporting actors not saying good night to him at the end of the shooting day on one of the movies. The next morning, when Nimoy asked the actor in question why they didn't say good night to him, the actor exploded, "And do you want to know WHY?!?", obviously still seething about some real or imagined slight from the day before. Surprised by this, Nimoy naturally went, "No, I don't think I do." Nimoy didn't say who the actor was, but my guess would be Koenig. He just seems like the type to hold things in until he explodes at someone. Maybe it was when Koenig was P.O.ed about his absurd Little Dutch Boy costume for STIII.

Maybe I'll see if I can find the Starlog issue in my spare bedroom to confirm who said the "cheap shots" thing. If I was Doohan, I'd certainly be upset about what I had to do in STV.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Shatner wanted Kirk alone and utterly betrayed by everyone.

There was pushback against the idea the crew would voluntarily betray him and wanted to play it as straight mind control. They said their characters wouldn't do that.

And they were right.

TFF is an early example of what happens when an ungenerous actor is given control over the script. Before that, Shatner could only suggest that other actors' lines and business be given to him. But when given control, he could make sure it happened.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

TFF is an early example of what happens when an ungenerous actor is given control over the script. Before that, Shatner could only suggest that other actors' lines and business be given to him. But when given control, he could make sure it happened.

No, he didn't. Shatner listened to Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley's feedback on the script in regards to their characters, and he altered the script according to their feelings that Spock and McCoy would never betray Kirk, even though he thought it weakened his story. If Shatner was really the selfish egomaniac that many fans stereotype him as, he wouldn't have done that.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I also recall another supporting actor (can't remember which) complaining in their interview that Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, and Sulu only had "cheap shots" in the film.

Pretty damned sure that was Doohan. It sounds like him and by the time the 90's rolled around his dislike of Shatner was almost a disease on its own. He was vehement in his hatred.

Maybe I'll see if I can find the Starlog issue in my spare bedroom to confirm who said the "cheap shots" thing. If I was Doohan, I'd certainly be upset about what I had to do in STV.

OK, I found the issue in question (Starlog #146, Sept. 1989), and yep, it was Doohan. First page of the interview, he talks about how STIV was popular because of the banter and camaraderie among the characters, and how STV didn't have as much of that.

"To me, it doesn't have enough of all the characters. We have what are called 'cheap shots.' When they start thinking of Star Trek now, they should start thinking of the whole group of seven rather than just the group of three. The fans are starting to demand it, and to me, their demands are being overridden. I think it's wrong to do that."

Understand -- This wasn't Doohan discussing STV years after the fact; this was in an interview promoting the film, which is kind of mind boggling. I honestly think that this was the supporting cast getting big egos after 20 years of fans at conventions telling them how great they were.

At least Doohan was big enough to say this a bit later in the interview:

"Bill treated everybody beautifully. He was very pleasant to work with, and I must say I was very happy with that. I wouldn't mind if he directed number VI."

George Takei has an interview in the same issue. I'll skim that one to see if there are any choice bits in there. As I recall, this was the first time I saw any of the supporting actors bashing Shatner publicly.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

OK, here's some excerpts from the George Takei interview in Starlog #146, and yeah, he's bitter:

"Star Trek V will please the fans, unquestionably. It's an exciting film. It's really the Kirk-Spock-McCoy troika. They make up the dramatic triangle, that's where the focus is. The rest of us are kind of incidental. Bill says we all have wonderful things to do, but we're really just there.

"It was the usual thing. I go down on the planet with Spock and McCoy and I go galloping on that galactic blue creature with the unicorn-like horn. So? Big deal. I took a week's worth of riding lessons before principal photography began and I got myself fairly expert at some of the tricks. Unfortunately, when we got to Mojave, it turned out that the insurance company wouldn't let me do the Suluesque action sequences. They used a stuntman. I got some interesting dashing about, bang-bang things to do, but nothing really substantial. More or less the same thing I did in Star Trek IV."

He then talks about if he left the franchise, he'd then be "forever" dogged by questions about why he left. He clarifies the cast options for STVI (The cast options for VI expired two years after the completion of filming on V, which would have been the end of December, 1988). And there was apparently some discussion of filming STV and VI back to back. (Back to the Future 2 and 3 had just done this, which was the first time two sequels were ever filmed back to back.)

On Shatner as director of V:

"He brought his usual rambunctiousness to the set. He created a very, very good working environment. Many of us had some... What's a good word? Anticipations. [I misremembered this as "apprehensions" above - JQ] Several of us had some anticipations about how it would go, but I have to give credit where credit is due. Bill was under a lot of pressure and he did a fine job. He never let the pressure creep on set. Leonard was under equal pressure during Star Trek III, and he never let the pressure creep in, either. They do have different approaches. Leonard encouraged us to watch dailies, Bill forbade us from doing so. Leonard is a much more quiet and indirect director. Bill was full of suggestions and spoke to us directly."

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

No, he didn't. Shatner listened to Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley's feedback on the script in regards to their characters, and he altered the script according to their feelings that Spock and McCoy would never betray Kirk, even though he thought it weakened his story. If Shatner was really the selfish egomaniac that many fans stereotype him as, he wouldn't have done that.

He listened to the only people remotely powerful enough to stand up to him. And Shatner (along with everyone else) learned a long time before that Nimoy couldn't be bullied into anything.

Look, I love the guy. He's still my captain in many ways. But we can't deny that as an actor he was wont to using his power to pull lines, scenes, and focus away from his castmates and on to himself. He did it going back to the 60s. And when given actual story control for the very first time, he came up with a tale where EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE SHIP joins a cult leader and betrays their oath, and only Kirk is somehow strong enough to resist.

 

[Turtletrekker]

My headcanon is that Spock and McCoy were able to resist because they were right there in the room with Kirk, and then their loyalty to Kirk overrode the brainwashing. None of the supporting crew had the benefit of Kirk being there at the time. If so, they could have shaken it off as well. I know that it's a bit of a stretch, but it's what works for me.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

He listened to the only people remotely powerful enough to stand up to him.

I don't think there'd ever be any doubt about who would come out on top in a hypothetical William Shatner/DeForest Kelley conflict.

Yeah, Shatner has an ego and he came up with a story centered on Kirk. But guess what -- Star Trek as a franchise was centered on Kirk.

 

[Maurice]

It makes no sense that Sybok didn't just share the pain with Kirk first and foremost right there on the planet. Why risk unnecessary and avoidable resistance? Brainwash them where you'r surrounded by all your troops.

 

[Qonundrum]

Do you have a source for that? Cuz that doesn't do much other than make them look like bad actors....

From what I read, while they may not have LIKED Shatner, they were surprised at how well he treated them as director. Since he was without any doubt in charge, many of his on-set insecurities were nowhere to be found.

And honestly, Takei had some of his best business in Star Trek V, more than any previous Trek film. He got to do an action bit, had a great moment in the shuttle and got lots of screen time. Nichelle had a ton of screen time as well. They came off better than Doohan with his pratfall and obvious dialog.

I'd read that as well; about Shatner treating them as director. (Shatner apparently directed some episodes of TJ Hooker as well...)

Takei's scene in the shuttle was pretty decent and he had other moments, moments other than the stupid "Hey, I'm the helmsman and me and the navigator as lost, isn't that funny!!" bit.

Doohan getting to save the trio was decently done, but I recall a TV interview featuring Doohan in promoting STV and guess which scene was dragged out? Yup, his headbanging pratfall moment rather than the jailbreak moment. Ugh.

Didn't Shatner have a hand in casting Laurence Luckinbill?

Okay, phew - found the Doohan interview at any rate. It's BBC1's "Wogan":

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Bizarre scene to use after Doohan's comment... and like and/or dislike the treatment of Scotty in "Relics", Doohan steals the show as he's acting up a storm with a terrific performance. (But that was 3 years later...)

It makes no sense that Sybok didn't just share the pain with Kirk first and foremost right there on the planet. Why risk unnecessary and avoidable resistance? Brainwash them where you'r surrounded by all your troops.

It would be the ideal place. Kirk would be comparatively out of his comfort zone and more likely to break. Maybe Sybok got sidetracked or was too eager to press on with the main goal of getting to the ship at deemed he could wait? Sybok seems the type where he could meet any passer-by and win them over very quickly.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Yeah, Shatner has an ego and he came up with a story centered on Kirk. But guess what -- Star Trek as a franchise was centered on Kirk.

It's not that he created a film "centered on Kirk" (although Nimoy did manage to create a true ensemble film).

It's that he tried to create a film where every single character betrays their oath except for Kirk.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I exorcised ST V from my brain years ago, and in my head canon, there is no such person as this 'Sybok', and no journey by the Enterprise to the center of the galaxy.

One of the very few times I walked out of a movie theater feeling absolutely disgusted and cheated.