Supernatural5x16 "Dark Side of the Moon" discussion/spoilerish

[Dorian Thompson]

TNT must be pleased. They expanded the morning syndicated reruns of SPN from 1 hour to 2 hours this past week. Apparently anything over 750,000 in the mornings is looked upon very favorably. From Douglas at pifeedback.com

Here's the rundown of "Supernatural" reruns on TNT did in the ratings for the weekdays of March 15-19, 2010 & March 22-26, 2010:

Monday, March 15, 2010 @ 10am: 766,000 viewers
Tuesday, March 16, 2010 @ 10am: 861,000 viewers
Wednesday, March 17, 2010 @ 10am: 844,000 viewers
Thursday, March 18, 2010 @ 10am: 914,000 viewers
Friday, March 19, 2010 @ 10am: 807,000 viewers

Monday, March 22, 2010 @ 10am: 1,145,000 viewers
Monday, March 22, 2010 @ 11am: 1,008,000 viewers
Tuesday, March 23, 2010 @ 10am: 979,000 viewers
Tuesday, March 23, 2010 @ 11am: 835,000 viewers
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 @ 10am: 915,000 viewers
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 @ 11am: 838,000 viewers
Thursday, March 25, 2010 @ 10am: 836,000 viewers
Thursday, March 25, 2010 @ 11am: 824,000 viewers
Friday, March 26, 2010 @ 10am: 888,000 viewers
Friday, March 26, 2010 @ 11am: 879,000 viewers

Melrose Place only got 1.05 million its last prime time (new episode) viewing. Monday morning's rerun beat that. Oh yes, the teen and adult slut shows are such good formula.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Melrose Place only got 1.05 million its last prime time (new episode) viewing. Monday morning's rerun beat that. Oh yes, the teen and adult slut shows are such good formula.

I don't think it is fair that you paint all the CW teen-oriented shows with such a broad brush. I've been watching Life Unexpected this season since it premiered and Gossip Girl for the last 3 years and they are both surprisingly good.

LU is a really charming quiet drama that has a really engaging cast of characters. I've enjoyed it quite a bit and have my fingers crossed it will be renewed. GG is fluff but its fun and entertaining. In fact, I've enjoyed both more this season than SN barring the stray mythology episode-"Children are Our Future", "Abandon all Hope", "My Bloody Valentine".

As for adult slut shows--yes Melrose Place 2.0 is awful and should be canned immediately--but if they are deviously good like the original Melrose Place back in the 90s I don't see what the issue is. Not every tv show needs to be deep or insightful. It all comes down to how they are executed. The problem with a lot of CW's shows have to do with poor writing plain and simple. They don't have the characters you can enjoy and they don't have the engaging storylines that their successful soap counterparts do.

And SN is certainly not above playing the sexy factor by casting mostly young attractive men and women--also SN isn't impervious to some really bad writing at times either and its dalliance with B-movie teen type stories isn't much better I would say.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.....you offer insightful but brutal critiques on all these shows but you're defending Gossip Girl? I can't figure you out, Star Trek Watcher. I've seen Life Unexpected. It's not a teen slut show and I wasn't including it in my rant. It has its charm and bits of very good writing. I've also seen Gossip Girl. It's very much included. There isn't a broad brush dirty enough. I've never seen such a stupid show. I'd hardly call Jim Beaver, Kurt Fuller, Richard Speight Jr. and Roger Aaron Brown's Joshua cute young teens inhabiting cute young teen B stories. Blair and Serena they are not.

Gossip Girl? Sorry. No. Not for me. OMFG no. Enough with the devious rich white backstabbing Park Avenue teens. There's nothing wrong with casting sexy. If the sexy is all you've got going along with lousy writing, then you have the problem. The teen and adult slut shows must go. They're withering on the vine. The CW went away from that with Life Unexpected and lo and behold, they got something decent.

 

[Snaploud]

I often watch Gossip Girl because my girlfriend is addicted. The writing is really terrible, and I grew up enjoying a lot of that kind of stuff on the WB. Of course, she points out that I watch One Tree Hill...which is valid...though, I still think that show was well done during its first couple seasons (which she hasn't seen).

I agree that Life Uninterrupted is decent (though, not as good as Gilmore Girls or most other fare from the old WB).

 

[startrekwatcher]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.....you offer insightful but brutal critiques on all these shows but you're defending Gossip Girl? I can't figure you out, Star Trek Watcher.

It's simple--GG overall holds my attention and I find it entertaining. It doesn't reach for the stars but what it sets out to do I think it does it well. It's pure fun if not very realistic. THe character interactions and dynamics are fun. I have a varying taste in the type of shows I enjoy and I can easily enjoy something complicated and sophisticated as much as I can something best characterized as a guilty pleasure. There's plenty room I say for all kinds.

SN occasionally tries to be great but oftentimes it can be silly or shallow. I don't set out with any checklist when I watch GG or SN--I either like what I saw and enjoyed the hour spent or I didn't. I honestly can say as shallow as GG is I have enjoyed it more often than not this season and it hasn't been the chore that SN has been. I'll take bed-hopping, backstabbing, Blaire antics, double-crossing, flashy shallowness with some panache and likeably fun characters any day over tired recycled standalones that don't bring anything fresh to the table.

SN had the potential to be a truly great drama but along the way because of budget limitations, inconsistent writing, straying off too much into parody/camp, and not enough shake-up in the status quo undermined that in my opinion. I also prefer a bit more balancing of plot with character. The show came closest to doing this in season 4 I thought but more often than not plot is pretty much an afterthought. I also didn't particularly care for Dean's snarky/juvenile characterization which really hurt my investment in his character. There has been some rehabilitation but the damage was done a lot in season 3 and to some extent in season 4.

I'd hardly call Jim Beaver, Kurt Fuller, Richard Speight Jr. and Roger Aaron Brown's Joshua cute young teens inhabiting cute young teen B stories. Blair and Serena they are not.

I can't stand the Trickster myself. As for the others yes they aren't teen actors but their screentime has been very little in comparison to the damsels of the week or Lilith or young Mary or young John or Katie's Ruby or Bela or Jo. How much screentime do older characters like Ellen, Bobby, Missouri get.

And while those characters might not be in some of the more teen stories that doesn't change the fact that the show has a tendency to do shows geared more towards teens and teen comedy/movie stories and the accompanying style--by the way I'm not saying SN does stories that can easily be done on GG--two very different shows tonally.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

To be fair, Jim Beaver's had a great deal of screentime, and they tried hard to get Loretta Devine back as Missouri, but she was too busy on Broadway and too expensive. Ellen had some decent screentime in season two. They kept her for the second half of season two and cut the young, beautiful Jo loose. True, Bela never should have seen the light of day but she was a network dictate. They wanted Jim Beaver full time, but he declined because he'd be away from his 6 year old daughter, who's autistic, too much of the time.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, StarTrek Watcher. I see a lot more depth in SPN than you do and have far more appreciation for the comedic episodes. I'll never go for the bedhopping of Gossip Girl. Blech. Not a fan of Desperate Housewives, either.

 

[Roshi]

Wait, what? André the Giant is dead? Since when?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Since 1993.

 

[Roshi]

Wow! Where the hell was I then? He died in France, dammit!

 

[Lt. Trull]

didn't realize "the princess Bride" was made so long ago huh....
the movie he's most famous for...

 

[FreezeC77]

Just something I noticed watching this episode again. Does this writing staff really love Knight Rider or something? This is the second time this season there's been Knight Rider jokes in the show.

Back in the episode where they were stuck in a 'tv world' Sam ended up stuck in the car ala KITT.

Then in this episode Castiel conversed with Dean through the radio and they used a kind of version of the Knight Rider music while transitioning to the next scene.

 

[Roshi]

^Thundercats are present throughout the series too.

 

[mswood]

Well for the most part I really liked that episode with two bi exceptions.

I couldn't stand Ash or Pamela's section of the episode. I thought it ground the episode down to a complete halt. And I love Pamela, Ash I never liked, but regardless of my personal feelings to the two characters it was Technobabble SN style, YUCK!!!!!

The other aspect of this episode is how Dean treats Sam's good memories. I mean seriously Dean, you still don't get it. Or you that incredible stupid, and insensitive of a person?

I mean look there is nothing wrong with Sam wanted to live a normal life, absolutely nothing. Hell you yourself want out of this life. You yourself think your Dad was often wrong. And you can't to this day get over yourself.

And boy as an adult (especially when Sam was often not one) you sure don't get it. You choose to stay and stick with your father. That was your choice. And you made it willingly.

Yet Sam as much as he hated his life, can understand why John did what he did (right or wrong) and clearly John was wrong as he did these things long, long before he discovered even a fraction of what was going on. He made the choice for them and up ended their lives years, and years before he discovered the danger to Sam.

Seriously, or we supposed to not see that Dean has grown?

Oh and one other moment I didn't buy, and that was Dean throwing away the amulet. I know they are using it has a metaphor for Dean's state of belief. But unfortunately for twenty years that isn't what that amulet meant to him. Nor has it been something that he has connected to God, or the war between heaven and hell or his role in it, that was Castiel.

It doesn't track either emotionally or rationally.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I didn't have much of an issue with Dean's reaction to Sam's memories simply because I could understand where it was coming from. He is hurt that his memories center on not being a part of John and Dean's family and that Sam seemed happier away from them. There were no good memories Sam recreated that included Dean. I think that would hurt anybody even moreso with what Dean is going through emotionally now. I think it is only a fair and believable reaction. I thought it worked.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I love these threads. We get such good discussions here.

 

[mswood]

I didn't have much of an issue with Dean's reaction to Sam's memories simply because I could understand where it was coming from. He is hurt that his memories center on not being a part of John and Dean's family and that Sam seemed happier away from them. There were no good memories Sam recreated that included Dean. I think that would hurt anybody even moreso with what Dean is going through emotionally now. I think it is only a fair and believable reaction. I thought it worked.

Oh I can understand it bothering him, but it's one thing for something to bother you and another to visually and verbally react or lash out with it.

I mean just judging off of Dean's we see him as a child in a normal happy setting, and one away from John and the hardships of their lives going doing something John wouldn't allow. One with that features a fairly young Sam, so Dean would be several years older. But even Dean's fond memory is probably an exceptionally rare moment for them of their childhood.

The difference between the two is Dean recognizes they don't have a normal life, but does little to actual have one. Sam recognizes a normal life and actively sought one out.

I mean Sam felt terrible about his life and his upbringing but still can emotionally and rationally understand what John did. Even as hurt, bitter, and pissed as he gets about it. And to say that Sam isn't under a huge amount of stress and has had his faith tested would be a joke.

It paints Dean as exceptionally self centered (which he clearly isn't).

But just because I brought out what I felt is the negative aspects of the episode over all I did enjoy it. Though the bits with Ash and Pamela was by far the worst part of the episode. Really that individual scene to me was worse then the body switch episode.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I didn't have much of an issue with Dean's reaction to Sam's memories simply because I could understand where it was coming from. He is hurt that his memories center on not being a part of John and Dean's family and that Sam seemed happier away from them. There were no good memories Sam recreated that included Dean. I think that would hurt anybody even moreso with what Dean is going through emotionally now. I think it is only a fair and believable reaction. I thought it worked.

Oh I can understand it bothering him, but it's one thing for something to bother you and another to visually and verbally react or lash out with it.

I completely could understand the lashing out. He was hurt and sometimes the normal reaction when you are hurt is to lash out to mask the pain you are experiencing(plus Dean is at a breaking point)--afterall to Dean, Sam was basically rejecting him and that can be the most painful thing of all especially from a family member and one that is so close as a brother. I mean to Dean he has to think wasn't there at least one good memory you want to relive that included me. True both brothers are under tremendous stress but we've seen that Dean is the one who has really been the most affected by everything and is emotionally fragile--so Dean's perception of Sam's rejection was the deepest cut of all. From Dean's point of view he has sacrificed so much of his life for his brother--raising him and being a father to him growing up, going to hell for him, looking out for him now and then to see based on the memories Sam essentially excised him can't be easy.

So for me it worked and I'm usually the first one put off by Dean's behavior but not here--I actually thought it was pretty realistic and dare I say human.

But just because I brought out what I felt is the negative aspects of the episode over all I did enjoy it. Though the bits with Ash and Pamela was by far the worst part of the episode. Really that individual scene to me was worse then the body switch episode.

For me the whole smarmy feeling up of imaginary Mary by Zach was the worst. The whole scene just was so trite and far from subtle.

 

[mswood]

I didn't have much of an issue with Dean's reaction to Sam's memories simply because I could understand where it was coming from. He is hurt that his memories center on not being a part of John and Dean's family and that Sam seemed happier away from them. There were no good memories Sam recreated that included Dean. I think that would hurt anybody even moreso with what Dean is going through emotionally now. I think it is only a fair and believable reaction. I thought it worked.

Oh I can understand it bothering him, but it's one thing for something to bother you and another to visually and verbally react or lash out with it.

I completely could understand the lashing out. He was hurt and sometimes the normal reaction when you are hurt is to lash out to mask the pain you are experiencing--afterall to Dean, Sam was basically rejecting him and that can be the most painful thing of all especially from a family member and one that is so close as a brother. I mean to Dean he has to think wasn't there at least one good memory you want to relive that included me. True both brothers are under tremendous stress but we've seen that Dean is the one who has really been the most affected by everything and is pretty much broken and so Dean's perception of Sam's rejection was the deepest cut of all.

So for me it worked and I'm usually the first one put off by Dean's behavior but not here--I actually thought it was pretty realistic and dare I say human.

But just because I brought out what I felt is the negative aspects of the episode over all I did enjoy it. Though the bits with Ash and Pamela was by far the worst part of the episode. Really that individual scene to me was worse then the body switch episode.

For me the whole smarmy feeling up of imaginary Mary by Zach was the worst. It just was so trite and far from subtle.

I just don't buy it, as it appears they are going through jumps from one memory to another, you would think Dean would be smart enough to judge that three memories don't make up a person. After all in Dean's eye the happiest time for Sam (based on what he knows) should be his time at Stanford with Jess, yet we see nothing of that here. It would be like Sam judging Dean for not having a memory with John in it. And assuming that's because he was never happy with John. Hell the difference is that Sam does mention what a great day that was with Dean burning down the field, so he clearly hears (and see's from Sam's reaction) that it was a good memory as well.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I just don't buy it, as it appears they are going through jumps from one memory to another, you would think Dean would be smart enough to judge that three memories don't make up a person.

As we've seen Dean is less of a thinker and more of an emotionally impulsive type so I don't think he was considering that these memories were just a slice of Sam's life coupled with the fact that emotionally unstable people like Dean tend to be hyper sensitive to things given their fragile state and anything that threatens it just amplifies the response.

These memories were just an accumulation of lingering feelings/suspicions that Dean has had and they were merely the final straw--this has been building over many seasons--when it came to the tension over Sam leaving the family to go off to college. It really had less to do with Dean resenting Sam for wanting a normal life but more to do with Sam's normal life not including Dean. I think Dean felt that Sam saw a normal life as one not only being free from hunting and supernatural phenomena but one free from his dysfunctional family. And frankly, I think deep down in some ways that is true although Sam wouldn't necessarily acknowledge it.

One clear character strand for Dean has been feelings of self-worth.

 

[mswood]

Here's one thing that really made me ponder the episode.

What deaths did Sam and Dean actually go to Heaven in?

Was it Sam after being knifed?

Because if that's so then a CRD can affect things in Heaven and I find that truly fascinating.

Also interesting since Lucifer is currently denied heaven (and in a weaker form), why wouldn't Heaven's agents make an offer to Dean.

Look Dean we keep Sam in Heaven (after all that has to have been a big fear for both Sam and Dean, that Sammy was destined foe the Pit), you let Michael take your body for a spin. This way Lucifer is not a match for Michael. Less problems for the good people on earth, and happy endings around.

If Dean is that utterly convinced there is no chance in hell (sorry), then hell Dean should make that offer. Or at the very least offer his surfaces if Sam can eventually be released.