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Superman's Problem - just my take

Gaith

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Note: PLEASE refrain from commenting on subjects not related to the following OP. If you think that Superman Returns was underrated, or that Singer shouldn't be allowed near the franchise again, terrific - there are dozens of other Supes-related threads in which to discuss such matters. Don't get me wrong; if you'd like to bring up a Supes film or TV show to contend with or otherwise engage the following main argument, that's terrific, but I'd rather see a narrower and smaller thread picking apart the argument than create yet another sprawling future-of-Supes thread, complete with box-office analyses and discussions over WB's access to the rights, etc.

It was argued on an IGN Movies podcast last December, I think, that one of the reasons the character of Superman doesn't seem to be in massive popular demand is that he doesn't have a core problem/vulnerability people can really relate to. The X-Men are outsiders, Batman has major grief and other issues, Spider-Man's just a regular dorky teen outside without his mask and even Iron Man has a very topical problem in that he helped arm most of his emerging enemies. So what's Superman's "problem"? For better or worse, Superman Returns painted him as an outsider and a nerd, though that was more of a plot circumstance than a permanent state, and the nerd side was at least partly an act - and who in the real world acts at being nerd-like, much less relate to that?

My personal take is that Smallville, at least in its early years, found a rather elegant solution to this problem, and also that of the difficulty of finding enemies strong enough to confront Kal-El, in establishing that his arrival on Earth was both a gift and (groan, this cliche again) a curse. Having Kryptonite create monsters was overused, but a brilliant core idea. I don't think it's any accident that Zod and his crew made for the most effective Supes movie villains yet.

I think that future Supes movies should continue this theme, but on a larger scale. Along with the meteors, perhaps a few random pieces of Kryptonian technology found their way to Earth, and baddies could use that technology to build lasers, big friggin robots, etc. Terrorists with Transformers-sized Kryptonite-powered robots? That'd give Superman something to punch and a thematic/emotional nemesis at the same time. And while angst shouldn't of course be overdone, the destruction that tech would wreak could give him something to agonize over. Heck, it could even be an effective way to refurbish the rather drab (in the movies, at least) enmity of Lex Luthor, in that only a brilliant mind could decode the alien technology and put it to use. In a sense, Superman Returns did do this, but it only made the thinnest hint at continuing Smallville's "Kryptonian stuff can be a dangerous problem" theme.

Make Kryptonian tech the central villainous MacGuffin, IMO, and you not only get relatively credible Supes enemies but also a cautionary tale about spreading weaponry, a subject very much in vogue in this age of fears over rogue nukes and other arms-related problems.
 
The thing with Superman Returns was that, I think, audiences were expecting one thing then got another. Since X-Men and Spider-Man, superhero movies, especially the ones that a more fondly remembered, had a good mix of action and personal character issues. Superman Returns had lots of personal character issues, but was relatively light on the action (I say "relatively" because the film did have action, but as opposed to directly fighting something, Supes did more saving and stopping disasters - which is not bad per say, but just not what I think people expected).

You say the solution is better writing. What is "better writing"? I am sure Singer, Warner Bros., and others on the production staff read the script to SR and loved it enough to make the movie. They thought that was good writing and, for the most part, they captured the character well, but threw him in a situation that he hasn't been in before.

You claim that it is hard to relate to Superman. I don't fully agree with that. Lets look at other popular film characters. James Bond: A spy who has lots of gadgets and goes on fantastical journeys. How can he relate to anyone?

Anyway, back to point: I think people can relate to Supes through the guise of Clark Kent. He has one of the biggest issues everyone can relate to: He has the hots for a girl who has no interest in him. The twist with this is, of course, that the girl has the hots for Clark's other identity. In any event, a story can give Superman a dilemma that can make him relate to movie goers. The Spider-Man films have been doing this and I would wadger that is why they are partly sucessful.

Anyway, I'm tired, it's late, and I am sure none of this post makes sense to a full degree. Long story short, regardless of end quality, I don't understand how hard it is to make a Superman movie.
 
I feel about SR the way I do about the SW prequels. It's not that it was a bad movie. In fact, it's a very GOOD movie, even daring Superman story. But it's not what people were expecting. And hell hath no rage like nerd rage.

Me, I loved it, a contemplative, meditative, thoughtful look at the Man of Steel.
 
People love the character and the brand...the problem is bad writing...
That sums it up completely.

Superman and his entire mythos is and can be fascinating. The problem is that everyone who gets their hands on it takes it in weird, freaky directions in order to try to be "innovative," "edgy," or "creative."

Turning Clark Kent into a pathetic, whiny and worthless chump like they did in Smallville is not what Superman is about. Reintroducing Krypton and an entire population of other Kryptonians is not what Superman is about. Turning him into a stalking, introverted dumbass like they did in Superman Returns -- and especially giving him a bastard son -- is not what Superman is about. Maxing Lex "Luth'Or" into a Kryptonian FBI agent isn't what Superman is about. Hell, even focusing on the sci-fi elements of Metropolis isn't what Superman is about. All of that is just complete and utter bullshit that personifies what I said in the previous paragraph.

Superman is the icon of what a superhero is. He doesn't need any of that bullshit to make him interesting. I don't give a fuck what some college professor or "professional" filmmaker says. Tell stories based around who and what he is. They need to quit trying to reinvent him just because they're pathetic fucking storytellers, which is the crux of the problem.

The animated Superman series is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one that's come close to nailing him in the last couple of decades. If they do need to reinvent the wheel, at least focus on the villains rather than the Man of Steel. Again, the animated series showed just how awesome a job you can do with that. The new Brainiac story they used was fantastic, and it didn't impact who or what Superman was one iota.
 
The problem is that the Superman films are generally pretty boring.

I want to see him fighting Giant Robots and doing amazing things not fighting Lex Luther yet again...
 
Note: PLEASE refrain from commenting on subjects not related to the following OP. If you think that Superman Returns was underrated, or that Singer shouldn't be allowed near the franchise again, terrific - there are dozens of other Supes-related threads in which to discuss such matters. Don't get me wrong; if you'd like to bring up a Supes film or TV show to contend with or otherwise engage the following main argument, that's terrific, but I'd rather see a narrower and smaller thread picking apart the argument than create yet another sprawling future-of-Supes thread, complete with box-office analyses and discussions over WB's access to the rights, etc.

It was argued on an IGN Movies podcast last December, I think, that one of the reasons the character of Superman doesn't seem to be in massive popular demand is that he doesn't have a core problem/vulnerability people can really relate to. The X-Men are outsiders, Batman has major grief and other issues, Spider-Man's just a regular dorky teen outside without his mask and even Iron Man has a very topical problem in that he helped arm most of his emerging enemies. So what's Superman's "problem"? For better or worse, Superman Returns painted him as an outsider and a nerd, though that was more of a plot circumstance than a permanent state, and the nerd side was at least partly an act - and who in the real world acts at being nerd-like, much less relate to that?

My personal take is that Smallville, at least in its early years, found a rather elegant solution to this problem, and also that of the difficulty of finding enemies strong enough to confront Kal-El, in establishing that his arrival on Earth was both a gift and (groan, this cliche again) a curse. Having Kryptonite create monsters was overused, but a brilliant core idea. I don't think it's any accident that Zod and his crew made for the most effective Supes movie villains yet.

I think that future Supes movies should continue this theme, but on a larger scale. Along with the meteors, perhaps a few random pieces of Kryptonian technology found their way to Earth, and baddies could use that technology to build lasers, big friggin robots, etc. Terrorists with Transformers-sized Kryptonite-powered robots? That'd give Superman something to punch and a thematic/emotional nemesis at the same time. And while angst shouldn't of course be overdone, the destruction that tech would wreak could give him something to agonize over. Heck, it could even be an effective way to refurbish the rather drab (in the movies, at least) enmity of Lex Luthor, in that only a brilliant mind could decode the alien technology and put it to use. In a sense, Superman Returns did do this, but it only made the thinnest hint at continuing Smallville's "Kryptonian stuff can be a dangerous problem" theme.

Make Kryptonian tech the central villainous MacGuffin, IMO, and you not only get relatively credible Supes enemies but also a cautionary tale about spreading weaponry, a subject very much in vogue in this age of fears over rogue nukes and other arms-related problems.

I agree completely, Superman is my favorite and I liked Superman Returns despite it's flaws. Smallville did get it right in the first couple of seasons and I still love Smallville. I want to see Braniac personally and i've stated that a million times.I think Braniac would be a good villian to bring in with the help of Luthor, but then put Luthor to the side and let Luthor have a minor role. I have no problem relating to Clark, he comes from a small town and so do I. I lived in a town just like Smallville(minus the meteor freaks) I didn't live on a farm, but my grandpa had horses and a barn. I alway's felt like I didn't belong there. I felt like an alien. I never could figure out what I wanted and couldn't wait to get out. I was in the Boy Scouts and even though Clark was not,he is constantly called a Boy Scout. I can relate because my parents were good to me and my dad died when I was young,so my mom was my mentor.My Mom counciled me on several decisions. I believe in the ideals that Clark tries to live by and convey as Superman and as a manager in a resturaunt I try to lead by example as Superman does in the Justice Leage. I often feel like 2 seperate people, one puplic persona and a private persona. I can relate to Clark more than Buce,Peter, Logan or Tony.Using your idea Braniac could be used by Luthor to sell to the military as a weapon. His ship would be found in space and he would be downloaded by Luthor, then something goes wrong and Braniac is released into his robotic body(which is back on his ship) Superman comes to the rescue and the fight begins.
 
Not to sound shallow but does Superman really need a huge "problem"? Can't it just be a big dumb action movie like Transformers? For me, Superman is all about being the ultimate action hero against the ultimate villains.
 
Re: Superman's Problem

As a character he's way too dull and boring, His personality is almost as bland as a lobotomy victim.

What's his inner conflict? He likes a chick, he's alone? Boring.

As far as superpowers, he's just way to overpowered.

Here's how every Superman conflict in a movie will go.

New badguy who's super insane powerful, even moreso than the villain from the last movie, Superman confronts him, Superman is just as powerful as him, if not moreso. Villain uses Kryptonite in some kind of way to weaken Superman's complete overpowerness, somehow the kryptonite issue will be resolved, Superman will then defeat the bad guy.

On top of that dull and boring conflict, Superman has no moral crisis.

Even if, somehow, someone forces Superman to make a choice between 2 evils, Superman will just turn back time so he doesn't have to make that choice.

And you say General Zod is a good villain on-screen? Superman depowers HIMSELF, just for god know what reason, the only thing I can come up with is so his super kryptonian sperm doesn't blast Lois' head off. Zod and friends come and fuck shit up. Superman plays one lame ass trick on them to get his powers back, then beats them up.

I mean come on, he even needed superpowers to take out that asshole in the diner.
 
You claim that it is hard to relate to Superman. I don't fully agree with that. Lets look at other popular film characters. James Bond: A spy who has lots of gadgets and goes on fantastical journeys. How can he relate to anyone?

The difference is Bond, at least to some degree, reinvents himself every so often and some of those films are topical; with Superman, though, the filmmakers and fans don't want him to change or even seem new/to the current era.

Superheroes in general face a problem in that the characters and stories were initially made to last 8-30 pages. Even Spider-Man, who has had an ongoing continuity and so more complexity, went through a lot of that history in just three movies (the origin and Goblin saga, Doc Ock/quitting/Mary Jane finding out, then Venom and Harry).

Batman is a character that also can't change very much, but he has great villains. I agree that making Superman a little less powerful (not totally invulnerable) and giving the villains some connections to him would be good ideas.
 
Can't it just be a big dumb action movie like Transformers?
Aw, hell no.

That's what I am afraid what will happen in the eventual next Superman movie. The main complaint for SR, seems, that there wasn't enough action. I'm worried that the studio will want nothing but balls-to-the-wall action, like Transformers, thinking that's what people will want and neglect any moral or personal crisis.
 
You know, Supes has lots of villains besides Lex. Some of them can actually go toe to toe with him. If the studio execs would just get past their "no one will recognize these other villains" idiocy, we might get a good movie. Think about it, until Superman 2, who in the world would have any clue who Zod is? Don't cripple the movie by using the "only villain anyone recognizes", make a movie and use that movie to make the villain famous.
 
And you say General Zod is a good villain on-screen? Superman depowers HIMSELF, just for god know what reason, the only thing I can come up with is so his super kryptonian sperm doesn't blast Lois' head off. Zod and friends come and fuck shit up. Superman plays one lame ass trick on them to get his powers back, then beats them up.

I guess he felt he couldn't properly be with her if he still had his powers, whatever... that is boring, I can admit because it's the whole "I can't be what I am for us to be together..." which is just shallow and stupid. As for Zod and the powers, Superman had his powers back before he saw Zod, they battled in Metropolis even. The trick was that he had somehow reversed the way the machine works and being inside...whatever it was, protected him from the rays.

I figure Supermans problems is that he is alone, literately and figuratively and he bears the worlds problems on his shoulders.
 
The problem with the Superman mythos is that there is no problem.
The problem with who ends up writing for Superman is Superman's problem.

I know you guys will grill me over an open flame for this, but the depiction of Superman in moving media (TV, movies) has never been that great. And yes, I include the original Donner's Superman to that list as well. But when you are given the choice of only mediocre things to choose from, you'll choose the best of the mediocre one anyways.

Smallville is entertaining but that's about it. It has no depth to it. They are trying to re-invent Superman with it but honestly it needs no re-invention. Smallville had the luster of being "what happened with young superman" but since they introduced Lois, killed Lex, introduced Doomsday and now has a Zod clone running around, they are officially out of creative ideas.

Superman Returns... *sigh*. The less it is said about, the better. The fact that Brandon Routh has to take guest starring roles in second grade TV shows and cameos in second-tier movies to make ends meet speaks volumes. With his good looks and acting abilities, he should be in blockbusters, not guest-starring in NBC's Chuck.

The best thing to do right now is to go back to the comics Superman Birthright and film it. The audiences would go wild with it!
 
Wizard magazine pointed out in the Superman special, released when he "died" in '92 that there are many different versions of Superman, like there are of Peter Pan. They mentioned how there is a saying that the Peter Pan you saw first is "your" Peter Pan and the same is true for Superman.

The problem is, there are many different Supermen and everyone holds fast to their own. Do you portray Clark Kent as a wimpy, bumbling klutz (Silver Age to Crisis on Infinite Earths and present day) or as a confident character in his own right (Byrne's Man of Steel through roughly 2004)? Do you portray Krypton as an idealistic futuristic society (Silver Age), akin to Vulcan (Byrne's Man of Steel), or a former imperialistic society (recent depictions that had Krypton colonize worlds until the Science Guild took over and dismantled the imperialistic society they had built)?

Is Superman caught in a love triangle between Lana and Lois while Clark pines for Lois (Silver Age) or does he get the girl (Current)?

I think you can see where I'm going with this.

Personally, I think the best Superman stories ignore all this and try to present an iconic version, which, in my opinion, Superman Returns failed to do. Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman took the best elements from the above and made those aspects less important than the story. On the other hand, the main titles have been shifting between origin stories and each writer has their own take on who they think Clark Kent should be, which has created a case where depending on the issue you read, Clark Kent acts totally different than he did in the previous issue.

For the next movie to be successful, I think they need to start over again, claiming an origin, portrayal of Clark Kent, etc. that they think fits the character they want on the screen for 2 hours best,, and then move from there.

And yes, Lex Luthor should be avoided, as there are plenty of Superman villains that could work, but I think Brainiac really fits best. With Brainiac, you have another alien life form, so you can play with that, you have the machine life form versus the being trying very hard to be a "normal" human, and you have a chance to use Brainiac's backstory to tie it into Krypton (as the animated series did or as the comics have done recently, either one works) in order to flesh out where Superman came from and to draw some interesting parallels and differences between Earth and Krypton, leaving Superman in the middle to decide what to take from each of his cultures, helping to further define who he is as a character.
 
Superman requires a delicate balancing act. He needs character development but you don't want to go so far as to have Superman crying when he flies into a room. Yet you don't want to portray him as "problem free" either.

The same with action. Too powerful and there is no drama or suspense. Too weak he just isn't Superman.

I do think Superman needs a new villain and a fresh new start. Someone once said in another thread that Superman needs to start completely over forgetting the Reeves and Routh Superman movies just as the new Batman movies forgot the Burton et al. movies of the 80s & 90s.

Since we all are very familiar with Superman I don't think we would need another origins story...but a movie where the character is already established and he confronts new villains with a balanced mixture of action and character development.
 
I rather like that idea, an origin story is sometimes interesting but tends to draw out to much. This is why I like the 2008 The Incredible Hulk film, they skipped over the origin by showing a montage of it in the opening credits with some past tense references to it. Gives you the impression things are relatively new enough, while being established enough to get into a story.
 
This should be all that's needed to tell Superman's origin. As a side note, I did like the one-panel Spider-Man origin at the bottom of that page.
 
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