Spoilers "Superman & Lois" Season 2

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Realist, Dec 16, 2021.

  1. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The average person can go to the DoD and ask them for protection, now that they know they're in danger.

    Better than dead.

    That happens whether they know or not, because their friend chose to associate with them in both identities. So yes, they are going to have to live on alert because of what their friend did.

    Seriously, you need to accept that there are just things about "Classic" Superheroes that are outdated and need to be reconstructed. Like "Keeping it a secret protects people" and "I should play sick mind games with my loved ones".
     
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  2. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No. Government agencies do not work that way. If you walked up to any agency asking for personal protection, you will--at the very least--be 1) questioned while your ID is being checked and 2) redirected to a branch of your local law enforcement. Just making shit up does not make it true.

    Translation: anything to try (and fail) to justify regular humans engaging in situations far beyond their physical pay grade (and jettisoning any sort of common sense out of the window), when they are better off with no connection to the hero's job and risks.


    Which no regular person signed up for and would not like such a dangerous imposition on their lives. If one is to accept characters as behaving somewhat like real people, then said characters would not willingly send their lives into danger and chaos for some irrational reason that can never be justified with reason.

    Individuals have private parts of their lives. That is the nature of most people around the world. Only those with a very serious level of insecurities feel they must know everything about / be involved in another person's life. I've used this example before, and it will apply here forevermore: people in potentially high-risk jobs (e.g. working for the C.I.A., N.S.A., etc.) do not open / expose all of their professional lives and risks to their families for the most sensible, time-honored reason.
     
  3. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In a superhero world adjusted to the fact there are superbeings and normal people are attacked by then, yes Government agencies would adapt to that and be able to try and provide protection.

    Yes. However, the hero was thoughtless and associated with them in both identities and thus is responsible for putting them in danger. So now they need to know about the danger to take precautions.

    Again, it's on the hero for thoughtlessly putting the target on them to begin with.

    They tell them that they ARE CIA, NSA and other similar positions, even if they don't tell them exactly what their position is. They do not lie to their spouses over everything. And if they choose to associate with people while "undercover", then they are similarly responsible for the danger that they've brought into their lives.

    We need more stories where once the hero's ID comes out to people they associated with in both identities, they get chewed out for how they endangered them.
     
  4. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Deservedly? Hard disagree.

    How so?

    I refer such comments to Adventures of Superman #525.

    Except it's not an issue if they're associating with him in both identities. People like Lois and Jimmy know the dangers of publicly being associated with Superman and have chosen to take those risks. People who Clark doesn't associate with as Superman are...not associated with Superman.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I remember Lois making a joke about how she hoped one of Superman's enemies should kidnap Steve Lombard and never give him back.
     
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  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Of course it's an issue. If the excuse for lying to your friends about your identity is that it keeps them safe from danger, that excuse goes out the window if they knowingly face the danger. Then you're just gaslighting them for no reason, which is horrible.
     
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  7. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I'd sure as hell want to know if I was going to die, even if it's just for 5 minutes, I'd still rather be able to prepare myself.
    To be clear, I never once talked about regular people trying fight the villains, I was just talking about them going about their daily lives. Even if you can't fight the villains, it's still better to know that they have a reason to target you, and that you can avoid putting yourself in a situation where they might get you.
    To be fair in most of these situations they weren't knowingly putting themselves in this situation, since they didn't know that their friend/significant other was a superhero when they first got involved with them.
    My biggest issue with secret identities is one that you have not addressed yet, and that is the fact that spending years or decades lying to people you care is really, really fucking shitty thing to do on a purely personal level. Even undercover cops, spies, and special forces soldiers at least tell their family members that they are those things, even if they can't tell them exactly what they're doing.
     
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  8. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

    It’s not unheard of but it’s hardly universal for them to do so, particularly the first two categories.
     
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  9. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, they would not. Providing personal protection for individuals is not their job or within their legal authority. Again, making shit up does not make it true or sensible.

    Once again: consciously involving civilians in superhero business is placing them in danger for no justifiable reason. Two, there are no precautions against the endless numbers of super-villains who all have distinct powers, methods of operation, etc., that the superhero cannot stop outright even when he's the only one facing them. He or she cannot possibly protect them, nor are they ever going to be "prepared" to deal with super-villains, unless this miracle is the product of especially poor storytelling.


    Nope. You're trying to shift the argument again. I said:

    The only thing on the hero is being so irresponsible that he or she actually believed involving his very fragile, John & Jane Q. Average relatives / friends in his life of dangers they will ever be "prepared" to face, handle, much less understand. Real people would not appreciate the hero deciding--of his or her free will--to involve--essentially draft their loved ones into a fight they never needed to know about/or face, and would not under every other circumstance of life.


    You really do not know what you're talking about. No one in the CIA or NSA is opening up the "book" of his or her job, what they see/know/do to relatives, not only due to the rules of the agencies, but on a personal level, for the safety of their relatives.

    Unrealistic and lacking any creative value whatsoever.
     
  10. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually it is. Especially if they can be bothered to create "Superman Corps" and all.

    The hero associating with them in both identities is placing them in danger for no justifiable reason.

    There are plenty, actually. But they only work if the hero doesn't lie to them 24/7.

    The hero doesn't that anyways, by associating with them in both identities and therefore letting their enemies know these people are important to them.

    They still tell them that they ARE CIA and NSA and don't lie 24/7.

    Nah, it led to great stories. Heck, even "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow" had Clark realize that his double-life just put people in danger.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  11. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Obviously they're not going to tell people who they're targeting on assigments, but I have a feeling most of the people they meet and get romantically involved with outside of work are probably going to be told at some point what they do for a living.
     
  12. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Again, no. The DoD does not offer personal protection for individuals, nor will they ever do that.

    Since average civilians cannot protect themselves from super-powered threats, and cannot possibly have a counter for the various powers and abilities from numerous villains, your statement is simply ridiculous.

    Knowing where one works is as contrasted in magnitude from telling / involving civilians in the details their professional lives as the heat of sun is from a wet firecracker. It is completely different than a superhero deliberately involving his loved ones in his business.

    Superior stories had civilians die as a result of their life becoming entangled with the hero's.
     
  13. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I know this was directed at @Anwar, but I've been saying similar stuff to what he's saying here, and in my case, what you're saying here is all I'm talking doing. I'm not saying they should be involving them in their superheroing, all I'm talking about is the heroes just telling the people they are closest too "hey, I'm [enter superhero name]". That's it, and just doing that is not going to suddenly put them in any more danger than they already were in by being involved with the person.
    Now, if the person decides that they want to find a way to get involved in the superheroing after they learn the truth, that's entirely on them, and is not the fault of the hero.
     
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  14. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They would in this case, this is a Superhero world.

    Average civilians would have a better chance to prevent their capture and endangerment if they knew they were targets now. And again, it's the heroes' fault for endangering them to begin with via associating with them and not warning them of the danger.

    This is all because the hero deliberately involving friends and loved ones in his business. The issue we're discussing is how irresponsible it is to do so and not warn them of what they've become a part of.

    Because the hero didn't tell them what they were entangled with. If they'd known, there would've been potential chances they'd live.
     
  15. YLu

    YLu Commander Red Shirt

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    Are we really supposed to believe those rules are primarily about keeping relatives safe? Those rules are about keeping classified information from leaking, nothing else.
     
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  16. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Quoter of Quotes Premium Member

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    I don't think this discussion will change anyone's minds, but thank you all for staying civil. :)

    FWIW, I half-expected Lana to have already known. They've said many times that she's his best friend. She should've known ages ago. I'm glad he finally told her.

    I am super frustrated with these :censored: breaks between episodes!
     
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  17. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Again, if they're publicly associating with Superman, how does also associating with them as Clark place them in more danger?
     
  18. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's usually the other way around, it's Clark choosing to associate with them as Superman which is what puts them in danger.
     
  19. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Either way, "both" have nothing to do with it. Regardless of secret identity, any one publicly befriending Superman is at risk.
     
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  20. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The rules serve both purposes.

    Probably not, as ridiculous, unnecessary and creatively weak concepts like that seen in the most recently aired episode of S&L are never going to sell as anything other than poor writing and in-universe, it makes Clark seem enormously irresponsible.