Spoilers "Superman & Lois" Season 1 spoiler discussion!

[TREK_GOD_1]

Looking at another classic superhero film, the whole point of 2002's Spider-Man was that a hero's responsibility is to save everyone.

Spider-Man was not dealing with a super-powered villain who had Zod's capabilities. There's no time to consider saving every life, because that's not sensible, or possible in the situation presented.

It does if the character is being moved from a fantasy land where he's always smiling, slapstick comedy happens every day and he's implicitly trusted by everybody to a somewhat more realistic world. The film highlighted the flaws with Superman's older movies.

Excellent point, which is why the Salkind films aged badly not long after they were released; the slapstick and sitcom-esque shenanigans gutted a superhero movie of one of its most defining traits: the hero fighting, even when the odds are against him being able to save everyone. Anyone expecting grinning and rainbows at the end of every superhero film obviously lacks even a basic understanding of the genre.

The sharp divide between people who saw him as a saviour and those who wanted him gone in BvS is pretty much exactly how I see our world reacting to Superman.

Which is the reason why Man of Steel--unlike any Superman production before or since--successfully captured how a Superman situation would work in the world, as opposed to cartoon love-fests / seeking Daddy figures.

Oh, you just have to love how someone else in this thread now bitches about staying on topic, when he's spent several pages talking about everything other than S&L here and in other threads. Typically hypocritical behavior.

 

[kirk55555]

Who said anything about lesser? If you take away drama, all you have left is bad guy punching. That's a cartoon, not because animation is a lesser form, but because cartoons have a runtime of 19 minutes.

There is a difference between generic drama and teen drama. A Superman show without any teenagers on the main cast (except maybe Jimmy Olsen, if he's on the older end of being a teen) is what I'd want. Superman should be the main character, and no teen bullshit. Contrary to what the CW believes, most shows do perfectly well without teen drama. If the writers are too incompetent to find a way to write a Superman show without adding shitty teens to add "drama", they shouldn't be working on the show.

You're acting like the majority of shows, superhero or otherwise, have "drama" without having teenagers or specific "teen drama".

You are 100 percent correct,* but of course L&C also doesn't meet the kirk55555 standard of only being a Superman show if the format is as bog-standard as possible. Imaginatively and cleverly recasting a Superman series as a romantic comedy is as verboten as making it a family drama.

Imagine a show where fucking Superman is the main character, and gets to wear the suit for more then literally a minute or two per episode. The creators of L&C sure as hell couldn't imagine that. Romcoms are shitty anyway, and I want a damn action/adventure show where Superman is the star and Lois is in the supporting cast, not a show where Lois is the star, Clark is the supporting cast, and the action is brief and pathetic while the focus is on stupid romcom shit.

Obviously the George Reeves superman show was complete shit, its almost completely unwatchable because of how boring and repetitive it is. Superman never fights anything that could give him any challenge, its all mobsters and generic crooks, and being a 50s show there basically is nothing happening storywise. I'm not saying I want that show's style to come back, I just want a show where Superman is THE main character, and the stories revolve around him as Clark Kent and Superman.

No, no you don't. You do not have first hand experience of the show. You have descriptions from people with biases that could be different from your own.

Literal synopsis rarely have bias, and the trailers certainly weren't shot to make people think it was a teen drama when its not. The show is a teen drama where the shitty teens are the main characters and Superman & Lois are the supporting cast. These are the facts. I don't need first hand experience of it to know that, they haven't pretended its not once the show actually started (before that they tried to pretend for awhile that it was an actual superman show, but that stopped pretty quickly).

I don't know why you're pretending that the show is something its not. Its like if I hadn't seen Aquaman and said "The movie has a lot of scenes that take place in the water", and then you start arguing that I can't know that there are underwater scenes in fucking Aquaman without watching it.

 

[valkyrie013]

Watched ep3 .. So far is the best cw series .. Love Tyler as superman!

 

[Skipper]

You know, I'm a little on the fence about the ethical aspect of letting Jordan playing football. On one side, denying him of playing because is the son of Superman would be like denying who was lucky on the genetic lottery and was taller or stronger or faster than the average, on the other side is the son of the frikking Superman.

 

[Christopher]

You know, I'm a little on the fence about the ethical aspect of letting Jordan playing football. On one side, denying him of playing because is the son of Superman would be like denying who was lucky on the genetic lottery and was taller or stronger or faster than the average, on the other side is the son of the frikking Superman.

But he's just moderately strong and unusually injury-resistant. It's not like he has full Kryptonian powers (at least not yet). He's probably just within the upper range of human abilities. As Jonathan said, his small size helps balance out his strength advantage.

Indeed, the case can be made that it's good for the son of Superman to get practice at controlling his strength, at holding himself back to perform on a baseline-human level and avoid injuring people. Sports are probably a good way to do that. Maybe martial arts would be more suitable for that than football, but football's what they have.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Clark played football himself in Smallville (which was of course completely unfair and he quit after... someone? used magic and he tripped and nearly killed someone)

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Clark also played high school football in John Byrne's 'Man of Steel' miniseries; and Jonathan gave him an admonishing for using his Kryptonian abilities to run up the score and break some records. I am unfamiliar if Clark played sports in any subsequent retelling of his origin

 

[Tuskin38]

I don't know why you're pretending that the show is something its not.

We're not doing that, you are.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But he's just moderately strong and unusually injury-resistant. It's not like he has full Kryptonian powers (at least not yet). He's probably just within the upper range of human abilities. As Jonathan said, his small size helps balance out his strength advantage.

The way Jordon's knocked his teammates around in practice indicates more than moderate strength. The fact that he's yet to demonstrate Superman-level powers on the football field is irrelevant to that point.

So far, Jordon and Jonathan have been near each other immediately before Jordan's exceptional strength has been displayed, by the way.

 

[Tosk]

You know, I'm a little on the fence about the ethical aspect of letting Jordan playing football. On one side, denying him of playing because is the son of Superman would be like denying who was lucky on the genetic lottery and was taller or stronger or faster than the average, on the other side is the son of the frikking Superman.

I generally have no problem with it. He got the long straw, lucky him. If Clark can have a job where he uses his genetic advantage to best his competition, why not sports too? ...Just so long as he doesn't kill someone.

 

[FPAlpha]

Spider-Man was not dealing with a super-powered villain who had Zod's capabilities. There's no time to consider saving every life, because that's not sensible, or possible in the situation presented.




Excellent point, which is why the Salkind films aged badly not long after they were released; the slapstick and sitcom-esque shenanigans gutted a superhero movie of one of its most defining traits: the hero fighting, even when the odds are against him being able to save everyone. Anyone expecting grinning and rainbows at the end of every superhero film obviously lacks even a basic understanding of the genre.



Which is the reason why Man of Steel--unlike any Superman production before or since--successfully captured how a Superman situation would work in the world, as opposed to cartoon love-fests / seeking Daddy figures.

Oh, you just have to love how someone else in this thread now bitches about staying on topic, when he's spent several pages talking about everything other than S&L here and in other threads. Typically hypocritical behavior.

I also don't get it why Man of Steel is ridiculed or rejected so much, i always thought it was a perfectly fine Superman movie and i loved the ending where he had to make the ultimate hard call that goes against everything he stands for.

The start of BvS is also really good and Batman's/Bruce Wayne's motivation to take on Superman also came across as very believable and logical, they just screwed up the rest of the movie after the Martha scene.

There is a difference between generic drama and teen drama. [snip]

Come on dude - move on. This show is obviously not for you as the producers decided on a different focus and you don't agree.

Fair enough, not everyone can be satisfied so what's the point of discussing it for several pages? This is a show about Superman's family, where he and Lois has 2 teenage sons so obviously there will be storylines about the sons too. All members of their family have their own storylines which may or may not intersect at some point and you don't like it.

 

[Skipper]

Come on dude - move on. This show is obviously not for you as the producers decided on a different focus and you don't agree.

Does a show for him actually exist?

 

[The Realist]

I'm delighted to realize that, so far, there's no sign whatsoever of a "Team Superman." Nobody nattering in his ear all the time. No techie character clacking away at a keyboard. No other costumed heroes taking up focus and screentime. Can they continue to resist the go-to Arrowverse formula? Here's hoping.

 

[BK613]

I also don't get it why Man of Steel is ridiculed or rejected so much, i always thought it was a perfectly fine Superman movie and i loved the ending where he had to make the ultimate hard call that goes against everything he stands for.

I think it is a perfectly fine Superman movie as well, with the caveat I mentioned upthread about Supes and civilians during the fight. I thought that could have been better. Didn't expect that opinion to be such a button issue.

....This is a show about Superman's family, where he and Lois has 2 teenage sons so obviously there will be storylines about the sons too. All members of their family have their own storylines which may or may not intersect at some point .....

And I am liking that they are taking the time to establish the characters and the world a bit before really getting into the heavier stuff. I started out a fan of Krypton but ended up not watching because the story arc came across as rushed.

 

[Saul]

Watched the pilot episode. This show isn't for me. It's very pretty looking but I'm not a fan of the cast and this version of Superman. I'm personally more interested in a Brandon Routh Superman series.

 

[Christopher]

I'm delighted to realize that, so far, there's no sign whatsoever of a "Team Superman." Nobody nattering in his ear all the time. No techie character clacking away at a keyboard. No other costumed heroes taking up focus and screentime. Can they continue to resist the go-to Arrowverse formula? Here's hoping.

I happen to like that formula. The "guy/gal in the chair" dynamic is a good substitute for the thought-balloon internal monologues of the comics; having a lone hero with nobody to talk to limits what you can do with action scenes. Note how wordless, brief, and impersonal Superman's action scenes have been so far. I don't just want to see what the heroes are doing, I want to know what they're thinking and feeling. Besides, in this interconnected, online era, a hero in the field not having expert support feels both quaint and unwise.

Still, Superman working alone is consistent with what Supergirl established about him way back in the first season, that Kara was more of a team player than he was and that was what made them distinct. So I appreciate the consistency, at least. Still, I definitely would like to see Superman interacting with other heroes at least occasionally. His interactions during his crossover appearances were always cool to see, and I don't want to lose that entirely.

Anyway, the "techie in the ear" formula didn't originate with the Arrowverse. Chloe Sullivan played that role for Clark in much of Smallville's run, as Watchtower (and that was inspired by Oracle in the comics). And before that, Tina McGee was the voice in Barry's ear in The Flash (1990). Although I guess those are both retroactively Arrowverse shows now.

 

[valkyrie013]

@Christopher
I for one like the "Lone Hero" show. Guess its like the thing of Do you like Serialized Trek, or Stand alone, My answer to that is, Yes, lets have both.
If the viewer likes team shows, there's plenty of them on the Cw and other networks, I for one am happy to have a show thats just the superhero, However you do have a "Team" in Lois and the Kids, and having them be in the spotlight ocasionally.
Now for the brief Lone Superman action pieces.. well, its TV and you have a budget.. Supes is Way superpowered, and almost any action piece will be expensive, unlike say Arrow, where you just have regular people fighting, etc.

 

[Christopher]

Now for the brief Lone Superman action pieces.. well, its TV and you have a budget..

Which is why TV does a better job focusing on character and dialogue than spectacle. That's my point. I'm not saying I want more action and spectacle -- just the opposite. They seem to have that part down just fine, delivering visually impressive set pieces. But action is superficial unless it advances character and story. And in TV or film, you generally need to have at least two characters interacting and talking to each other to develop such things.

At the very least, give me fewer scenes of Superman stopping impersonal disasters and more scenes of him taking on villains, trying to talk them down, clashing with them on a level of ideologies or goals. The best kind of action scene is the kind that's not just a clash of bodies or weapons but of ideas and worldviews and needs -- where the action embodies a character conflict and reveals something about the people involved beyond just how hard they can hit.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm delighted to realize that, so far, there's no sign whatsoever of a "Team Superman." Nobody nattering in his ear all the time. No techie character clacking away at a keyboard. No other costumed heroes taking up focus and screentime. Can they continue to resist the go-to Arrowverse formula? Here's hoping.

Wow. You just pushed the tired Berlanti formula into a closet.....but given the nature of the threats Superman is starting to face, he will end up needing help to some degree. I see Jordan trying and getting hurt in the process, which would open the door for SM to seek "enhanced assistance."

 

[DigificWriter]

I happen to like that formula. The "guy/gal in the chair" dynamic is a good substitute for the thought-balloon internal monologues of the comics; having a lone hero with nobody to talk to limits what you can do with action scenes. Note how wordless, brief, and impersonal Superman's action scenes have been so far. I don't just want to see what the heroes are doing, I want to know what they're thinking and feeling. Besides, in this interconnected, online era, a hero in the field not having expert support feels both quaint and unwise.

Still, Superman working alone is consistent with what Supergirl established about him way back in the first season, that Kara was more of a team player than he was and that was what made them distinct. So I appreciate the consistency, at least. Still, I definitely would like to see Superman interacting with other heroes at least occasionally. His interactions during his crossover appearances were always cool to see, and I don't want to lose that entirely.

Anyway, the "techie in the ear" formula didn't originate with the Arrowverse. Chloe Sullivan played that role for Clark in much of Smallville's run, as Watchtower (and that was inspired by Oracle in the comics). And before that, Tina McGee was the voice in Barry's ear in The Flash (1990). Although I guess those are both retroactively Arrowverse shows now.

The 90s Flash series is part of the Arrowverse; Smallville isn't.